Michael Walker: Yeah. All right. I'm excited to be here today with my new friend, Jacob Edgar. Jacob is a global music explorer. He's discovered extraordinary artists as the President of Cumbancha, an A&R lead for Putumayo World Music. He's the host of PBS/National Geographic's Music Voyager, where he takes the audiences on immersive journeys through diverse musical cultures.

He's an ethnomusicologist, which is a word that I didn't know existed, but it sounds amazing. So through that, he's been able to curate over a hundred-plus world music compilations, contributing to albums that have sold over 20 million copies. So I'm excited to have him on the podcast today to talk a little bit about the power of branding and how to use the power of branding to find your audience and connect with the people who really resonate with your music, even if you feel like you're kind of niche.

So, Jacob, thank you for taking the time to be on the podcast today.

Jacob Edgar: Thank you. It's great to be here. Do I need to scream too? I'm not sure if that's a—

Michael: Part of my responsibility. I can, yeah. I like it. Honestly, the only thing I use that for is just, yeah. But Jacob, I mean, to kick things off, I would love to hear just a little bit more about your background and how you became an ethnomusicologist. I feel like there's some interesting threads to pull on there.

Jacob: There is. I mean, like so many people in the music industry, I started being passionate about music as a young person—playing music, listening to music, being a music fan. But I was also interested in travel. I was interested in history. I was interested in learning about other cultures and languages.

And when I was in college, I discovered that there was a field of study that basically brought all of those interests together, and that's ethnomusicology. And ethnomusicology is basically the anthropology of music. It's the way in which human beings use music in their societies, in their cultures. You can approach it from a historical perspective. You can approach it from a purely musical perspective, looking at how different people in different cultures play music or listen to music differently. You can apply it to society and analyze what role music plays in political movements or in historical movements. There's language, the connection between language. There's a lot of different angles that you can take with it, but it's basically a lens that you can use to interpret the world around you.

And music has been my lens. It's been the way in which I learn about the world around me and discover new things about people through the music that they listen to or that they play.

Michael: Hmm. Wow, that's so interesting. Yeah. I'd love to hear, I mean, based on your experience in that world and kind of viewing different lenses and different perspectives and use cases for music, I'm curious to hear an overview of your personal perspective of music—the roots of it. What is it here for? What's your perspective, having seen all these different cultures who are using music in different ways?

Jacob: I mean, having that international perspective, you—first of all—you learn that every culture has music. So just as every culture has language, we also all have music. We all have our different ways in which we approach it.

And the one thing I have learned also is that this myth that music is a common language—it's true in one sense, but it's not true in the sense that you can understand everybody's music the first time you hear it. We all express music in different ways that reflect so much beyond just the sound of the music. It reflects the background in which it was created. It tells us stories about the people that made it. And sometimes, if you don't know those things, you don't really understand the music that you're listening to. Because music is more than just about sound, and that's something that I've learned a lot.

You can't really separate it from its context and fully get it. That doesn't mean you can't listen to music out of its context and really enjoy it. I mean, I hear all kinds of music sung in languages that I don't understand, that probably were played in settings that I would never myself personally get to, or maybe used in a certain way that I would never use it—but I can still enjoy it. I can hear, whatever, Tuvan throat singing, and I might not be out on the plains of Central Asia, but I can still get something magical. It can still touch my soul. And music is a unique art form in that way.

Michael: Mm. Cool. So what I'm hearing you say is that music goes beyond just the sound but actually is more about what it represents—the context and the culture and the kind of DNA that went into it. And so one thing we've learned is there's all kinds of different cultures for it.

Jacob: I like to say—I used to go to, when I was doing my music research for Putumayo compilations—my job was basically to travel around the world and listen to music and go and find the artists from different countries and listen to as much of it as I could.

And there were often scenarios where I would go to a country and I would find music that I really connected to, being an outsider. And other music that might be really popular in that country, or really well-known in that country, that didn't resonate as much with me. And part of it wasn't because it was good music or bad music—it was because I didn't understand the context of the music.

So, you know, when we hear music, be it from a famous celebrity or something, we're not just hearing the song. We're also hearing the story behind the song. We know when they got busted for DUI. We know who their girlfriend was. We know all the gossip that goes behind the music and the personality behind the music.

And if you don't know any of that when you hear a song, you do miss something. You're missing out on some of the background that goes behind the music. Or maybe the role that that particular song played during a political uprising 50 years ago. I mean, I wouldn't know that just by hearing it. And so it's the same with our own music—with American music. There's a lot of people from other countries who can hear American songs and not necessarily understand the power or the meaning of the song just by listening to the music itself.

Michael: Hmm. Super interesting. I mean, it rings true for me right now especially. This studio that we're recording this in is a new studio for Modern Musician, and for the past few months we've been hosting artist showcases where some of our artists come out. And part of what they're doing is they're sharing their stories behind the songs that they're sharing.

And it's exactly like you're saying—hearing those stories and understanding the context really helps me gain more appreciation of some of these genres and styles that there's no way I would have listened to on its own. But hearing those stories kind of puts it in—it helps me appreciate it more.

Jacob: Yeah, and I think that's one of the challenges. I'm sure you talk about this a lot on your podcast—the contemporary ways in which we listen to music. Most people are now streaming music through Spotify or Apple, whatever their platforms are, and that really strips away context in a lot of ways. We no longer even have liner notes or things that come with the album, with lyrics or anything to help us understand the broader story behind that song. We're just hearing music coming at us from these platforms, often algorithmically fed to us in ways that we don't totally understand.

And so part of the role that I think I've been trying to play—certainly with Putumayo, one of the record labels that I work with—is how to bring back some of that context. How to help people go beyond the algorithm essentially, and appreciate music—get attracted to the music for the sound of it, but then be interested in going deeper and understanding maybe where that music came from or the people that are behind it.

And hopefully through that process, they will increase their appreciation for the diversity in the world. That we are all humans, we all have so much in common, but we also like to do things a little bit differently. And not only is there nothing wrong with that—that's great. That's something we should celebrate and cherish. The different ways in which people everywhere do things is part of what makes it fun to be alive. If we all ate the same food, if we all listened to the same music, if we all did the same things, it just wouldn't be as much fun.

Michael: Everything is a... Hmm, hmm. Yeah. Awesome.

So in terms of a lot of the folks who are listening to this right now, I think one of the biggest challenges that they're facing—and I'm sure you hear this a lot as well with the artists you've connected with—is, there's so much noise in the world right now. There's so much music. It's easier than ever to distribute music. Social media is kind of like—everyone feels like they're screaming from a bullhorn. It's like, how do I cut through and how do I connect with new listeners who don't know who I am? And why should they care about me and my music?

And I'd love to hear your perspective on what we are describing right now. How does that fit into this equation of artists finding their ideal fans and building that deeper relationship?

Jacob: I mean, there's so many approaches. It's definitely a topic that I think about all the time. As somebody who produces and promotes and markets artists—how to build their audiences, how to build a sustainable career for them—and there's a lot of different angles and approaches and ways you have to do it in order to sort of build the layers that will get you to that level of success.

My suggestion to artists that I work with is always: start local. If you can, if you come from a particular region or a particular place, focus on your natural fan base in that market. But at the same time, you have to realize that there's a potential audience for your music all over the world, and it's so much easier to reach them now than it used to be. The barriers to distribution are gone. The barriers to marketing and promotion are gone. There's so much that you can do. So then the challenge just becomes, as you said, getting heard above the noise, above the commotion.

You mentioned at the top of your podcast the importance of branding and helping use a brand to raise awareness for your music. And that's something that I have a lot of experience with through Putumayo and the lessons that I learned through Putumayo I've applied to my other projects, my other record labels and things.

And the story behind Putumayo is really interesting because it started first as a retail store. It was a guy named Dan Storper who started an import shop, and he had gifts and clothing and items from different parts of the world. They used to play music in the shop that reflected the places where their products came from.

Over time, people started asking more and more about the music—what was this that they were hearing in the store? And from that, he started a record label that focused primarily on compilations of what at that time was called world music—music from around the globe, music from a variety of cultures.

Michael: As opposed to outer space.

Jacob: Outer space, yes. Whatever. It's a terrible term, but it's the term we got. But Putumayo was really the brand. These compilations were marketed with very consistent artwork. They were distributed in non-traditional retail stores, and they gained a lot of visibility—not just for the music that was on them but also for the brand that was presenting that music. The look, the feel—it became a whole sort of lifestyle brand. It became a way of approaching the world—this sort of cultural creative concept of wanting to learn about the world around you.

You would find Putumayo CDs in the aisles of Whole Foods stores or in your local cafe or in your museum store—places you wouldn't expect to find music. And the beauty of that was that it really drew people to discover music that they might not otherwise have thought they were interested in. You know, your average soccer mom or whatever would not say, "Oh, I really love Brazilian music." But if they were in a cafe and they heard it, they would tap their toe and say, "Ooh, I like that." Or if they saw a beautiful cover with a tropical beach scene that was really compelling, they might pick it up and bring it home and say, "You know what? I really love this," and go down that pathway of musical discovery.

So the brand really was an important device for helping people discover music, especially music that they hadn't heard of before.

More recently, in the digital age, we've been trying to utilize the power of that brand to play the same role. So we have official Putumayo playlists. We have digital compilations that we're creating. We have a YouTube channel. And all of these things utilize the power of that brand to introduce artists that are struggling to get their voices heard.

And the results are really incredible. What it demonstrates is that sometimes the brand can help give an artist a leg up. They're trying to break through and get their music heard by people, and sometimes it's the brand that people trust that they're going to go to for discovery.

That's one of the things that is a real challenge in the digital music sphere. Other than the main platforms like Spotify and Apple, there isn't a lot of room for brands to drive people to new music. So I would love to see a change in the way these platforms approach brands—to bring them in.

And a brand—when you say the word brand—that can be anything from a brand like Apple or whatever. But it can also be a person like yourself. I mean, you are a brand, Michael Walker, with your podcast and the things that you do. You are a person that people will go to for advice, suggestions, and discoveries.

Michael: That's really just what celebrity can be.

Jacob: Yeah, exactly. I'd love to see a place where brands like you and us can have more impact in the digital sphere because I think there's a big role for that.

Michael: I totally agree. You're speaking my language.

We actually have a platform that we're developing—we're getting ready to release it at the time of recording this in about two months. Basically, the main purpose of the software platform is to do exactly what you're describing—helping create more of an interactive community for artists to connect with their fans and to put into practice some of the ideas you're talking about with branding and connection and building relationships, and adding more depth to those relationships—versus what's currently there for, like, a Spotify relationship.

Jacob: Yeah. It's very superficial at this point. But I think that when you fall in love with music or when you fall in love with an artist, you do want to support them. You want to give them the ability to keep creating stuff that you like.

So it's important to give artists the tools to capitalize on that.

Michael: A hundred percent. It's the connection. I think you probably know this better than most people—just how important the connection is when it comes to musicians and music and its role. It connects artists and the communities together.

But with Spotify, you're missing one of the most important parts—the connection, the community, and being able to connect with each other. And it almost seems kind of crazy that there aren't more community features already built into that platform.

Jacob: It's true. I use a lot of the platforms. YouTube is really great for that. YouTube allows you to have direct communication with the people that are engaging with your video or whatever it might be. Spotify should add that. The other platforms should as well.

I think they would benefit from it because they'd see a lot more interaction going on and more engagement. Eventually, hopefully, an artist gets to a place where they themselves are a brand and they can play that role for other artists as well.

I mean, Ed Sheeran got discovered because Taylor Swift invited him to open for her on tour. And I'm sure there's a million other artists out there that got brought into greater fame through their relationships with bigger brand artists who helped their voices get heard. So cultivating those brand relationships can be really key for an artist.

Michael: Good stuff. So for an artist who's watching or listening to this right now, who's interested in going deeper into their brand—and maybe they're at a point where they're still trying to figure it out, they're still kind of like, "What is it about me that makes me unique?" or "How do I find the right people?" and they're just trying to figure out how to get started with building their brand, being intentional about it—how do you recommend they start out?

Jacob: I mean, I think behind every brand at the beginning, certainly, is a great story, right? There's the foundation story, how the brand got created, and you hear it all the time when you hear the stories of whatever—Ben and Jerry's got started in a gas station in Burlington, or whatever it might be, Patagonia—all these great brands out there. The way in which they got started is part of their myth. You're basically creating a myth.

And if you go back and you look at some of the great artists, the most successful artists in history, part of what made them great—beyond their music, of course—was the myth, the story behind them. We're seeing it right now with the Bob Dylan movie that's come out, and just how he basically created this identity for himself.

To the point where he became that identity. Even if he wasn't when he was young, as he developed as an artist and a musician, he came to embody that identity. And so, I think that all people working in the creative sphere, especially in music, have to sort of figure out: what's your myth? What's your story? How are you trying to represent yourself to the world?

Just getting up on stage and playing music isn't enough. You have to pull people into your story and your identity and what makes you unique and special. I often tell artists they've got to think about it. What are they really about? Do they have a message behind their music? Do they have a mission behind their music? What was interesting about how they got into their career? So that's all a very important part of the process.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's part of it. The challenge that artists face these days is that just playing music is probably not enough. You've got to come up with the ways of communicating and growing your audience and thinking outside of the song itself, but also how to get that song heard.

These things that we've been talking about—from partnering with brands or using brands to connect with people, to coming up with creative stories to tell about your songs and your music and your personality—these are all techniques that you use to grow that connection.

Michael: Still an important part is, if your music isn't good, it's not gonna connect.

Okay, so in terms of the origin story, kind of like the myth, I think that's super smart, and I know that's the case for like businesses. Really important to have your origin story. But any kind of brand, like you're talking about, including artists.

The thing, for in my mind, that came up was superheroes. Like every superhero has this origin story, and it's kind of part of that myth. It's part of the legend.

I'm curious to hear your perspective for artists who—they're so close to themselves, their own story—that they might feel like, who am I? I don't have a story to tell, or I don't have a personal story or a myth.

What's your thought on how they craft their origin story? And do you think it's something they have to already have all figured out? Or do you think they can also proactively create a myth they want to step into, that they can then embody?

Jacob: It's such a good question. It's a good point too. I think that many artists that I talk with—I bring up these types of things—and they're just, they can't even. They're too close to it. They're too close to themselves to be able to answer those questions.

I think in the old days, you used to have A&R people, you used to have promotion people on your team, and they were there to sort of help craft that story. Even if it was sort of a silly thing, they were there to come up with the pitch. What's your artist elevator pitch?

And again, you also had really creative artists who were great at doing that for themselves. I'd mentioned Bob Dylan, Michael Jackson, whatever—all of these great artists over history—that was part of their skill set, part of their talent: crafting their myth, crafting their story.

But if you can't do it yourself, I think then you have to ask the people around you. Your friends, your family—sometimes they can identify those elements of what makes you interesting in ways that you never can. And often it'll probably surprise you what they pull out. They'll say, "Oh, well, I mean, if I were telling your story, this is what I would say."

So I would suggest that artists do that. Go to the people that know them and see what they have to think. Do a little poll, and maybe you can create it from there.

Michael: Super smart.

Yeah, so one strategy is actually literally getting outside of yourself and getting perspective from people that know you, and seeing how they would tell your story or what kind of stands out.

What kind of questions do you think that you should ask those close contacts or in the poll? What do you think are some of the best questions to get that feedback, that insight on how they can craft their origin story?

Jacob: I would start broad. If it were me, I would say: this concept of the elevator pitch is sort of the same idea. What do you think defines me as an artist and as a person? See what they say, and they'll probably come up with some pretty wild stuff, and then you can condense it.

Michael: What a big question. "What do you think defines me?" I'm tempted to go ask my friends and family. I'm like, I don't know if I want to hear the answer to that question from everyone. What defines you?

You have to have some humility, I think.

Cool.

Okay, so now we're starting to dive into creating a myth or a story or a way to communicate that elevator pitch. Now, what I would love to hear your perspective on is—clearly you have a genius zone around not only brand building for yourself, but also finding that alignment and the other brands to be able to partner with and to be able to collaborate with your brand in order to reach more people.

You mentioned how Ed Sheeran—one of the reasons that he was able to grow his audience so quickly was because he had an opportunity to collaborate with another brand, with Taylor Swift.

So I'm curious to hear your thoughts on how do artists, when they're getting started—let's imagine that they have done some of this initial work, and they've started to get clear on who they are and their identity and their niche—how do they start building those relationships with bigger brands to have the opportunity to play on tour with a bigger artist, for example, or just other kinds of brand opportunities?

Jacob: Yeah, I mean, I've worked with some artists in that situation where they're trying to find where they fit in, in a variety of different ways. And let's say you're looking for a good record label or you're looking for a good booking agent or those types of things. I always advise artists to look at the artists they like and who they're working with. So if you feel like you're a kindred spirit with a certain artist, it probably means that that record label will be interested in what you do or that booking agent will be. And the same is probably true for musicians as well.

I've known some musicians over the years who are not famous, who are not household names, and yet, because they're go-getters and they like certain artists, they would reach out to them and have a demo for them and say, "Hey, how'd you like to work with me on this song?" And sometimes I've been completely amazed with the fact that what I consider to be pretty famous artists will say yes to a total unknown because these days it's very easy. You're like, "Oh, would you maybe lay down some vocals for this track?" And they'll be like, "Sure, it takes me 15 minutes and it's fun, and I like this guy's sound."

I think there are artists out there that want to help you. So I wouldn't be ashamed or be afraid to reach out to artists that you like, especially if you have something in particular that you'd like to work with them on, or that you think their voice or their instrument could add something special to it. It never hurts to ask that.

And then also, locally within your own communities, collaborating with different musicians in the area—working with them on productions or live performances—you have to have a certain element of gregariousness to get out there and become part of a community. If you're just gonna sit in your room by yourself or in front of your computer and play, that's gonna have limits. You really just have to get out there and network and meet people and go to conferences, trade fairs.

I'm going to a conference tomorrow actually, that's up in Montreal called the Folk Alliance, and it's a conference for people who are into folk music. Right, and folk music in the broadest sense—it can be Appalachian banjos to African music. I mean, it's a real wide range of what we call folk music. But these are opportunities where musicians get together and meet their peers and build those connections. There's a lot of places like that, a lot of scenarios like that, a lot of festivals and conferences and other things where you're able to get on stage and share music with other people and build those relationships.

Michael: Super smart. Yeah. So it sounds like what you're saying is that to start with, you have to ask. If you never ask or reach out, then there's no chance for even an opportunity to happen. But people might be surprised by what happens with continued reach-outs—that you can actually find and build those connections, even with people that you might consider to be outside of your realm of possibility.

It reminds me of one of my mentors who has a concept he calls the "Dream 100." And basically, the strategy is you make a list of 100 people that you want to collaborate with or partner with or connect with. Like what you just described, what it might look like is making a list of all your favorite artists that you would love to collaborate with, or brands that have personally really impacted you.

And then reaching out to them in creative ways—whether it's just reaching out to establish contact or finding out where they're at and you creating a gift for them or doing something that is a cool way to connect with them. It really rings true with what you just shared, that in order to build those relationships, first you have to show up and you have to ask.

Surround yourself—put yourself in situations where the people that you want to collaborate with are there. So just by osmosis, you can connect with them.

Jacob: Right, exactly. You'll run into them. Think magic. Give the opportunity for magic to happen.

Michael: For sure. The opportunity for magic to happen. I like it. Cool. So how about we talk a little bit about what happens after you—let's say that someone here has done the initial work of crafting their artist identity and a little bit about their story and their myth. They've also reached out to similar artists to them, and they've even had some opportunities to collaborate or have a feature or play a show with a bigger artist.

What would your advice be for them when it comes to building a deeper relationship with those new fans that they're connecting with, and also that challenging point of turning someone from a fan into an actual customer and someone that supports you? What are some of the biggest opportunities you see right now for artists to actually make sustainable income with their music?

Jacob: Well, I mean, I think there's a lot of tools out there for artists to use—from the basics, like creating an email list. I'm always amazed how many artists overlook just that basic tool of having direct email communication with your audience. I always tell artists, collect emails at your shows. I know it sounds old-fashioned, but it's gonna pay off for you in the long run.

To maintain that direct communication outside of Facebook and Instagram and these platforms where you are in control of that communication is really important. I'm sure you've talked about and your listeners are familiar with tools like Patreon and Kickstarter and all those crowdfunding sources—some of which have gotten a little bit tired as everybody's out there begging for money—but at the same time, you want to make it easy for people to support you.

Don't make them jump through hoops. If they want to send you $10, make it easy for them to do that. Spotify even has that kind of artist donation tool built into their platform now that you can set up and have people make PayPal donations directly to you. Patreon is a way of generating support from people, or even just special fundraising campaigns to keep your audience engaged.

They don't have to do a lot to feel like they're supporting you in some way. I've worked with a lot of artists who feel awkward about that—who feel awkward about asking their audience for support. But me, as a listener and a fan of music, I've always been really happy when an artist has let me know that they need some support because I'm happy to give it. I'm happy to be like, "Oh, great," you know. I know that the artist will need it and can appreciate it. So that's another situation where you have to kind of get over your resistance and feel free to be honest with people and let them know that you need their support.

Michael: Yeah, that's super helpful. And it does seem like when someone—especially when someone does like a Kickstarter campaign or they do some sort of fundraising round for recording new music or there's something on the other side of it—it’s easy to forget that you're actually providing value. You're providing a service, or you can actually do things that people genuinely are excited to get and support you with.

It's not always necessarily just sort of like, "Hey, I'm a starving artist," or, "I'm begging or I need help," so much as just like—you can do cool things for your fans in exchange for them supporting you on a monthly basis or on a one-time basis. It's similar to what you mentioned earlier around asking for the brand contacts. If you never ask, the opportunity's never there for someone to say yes. So it's like 0% of people can say yes. But if you ask, there's always a chance—there's always a percentage—even if it's one in a hundred, a hundred, a thousand.

Jacob: Active asking can be something that generates engagement, that gets people interested in that conversation and that communication. So I think that's an important part of just maintaining that engagement with your audience—keeping that on your team and knowing that you're active and doing things. I think that's the other challenge often for artists: they go through phases in life. And in some phases of their careers, they're really active, they're really engaged, and then there are gonna be phases when, I don't know, maybe they have kids or they're just a little depressed or whatever it might be, and they just don't feel like engaging in that way.

You can kind of lose your connection and you have to go back and rebuild it again.
 So I recognize it's a real challenge for musicians to maintain that level of connection over the years. It can really, really be tough. But you sort of have to develop a brain for that part of being a professional musician.

Michael: Good stuff. Yeah. It reminds me of—I think this is a book—but it's called The Art of Asking. It's Amanda Palmer, I think, who wrote that. But yeah, makes sense. It sounds like what you're saying is that really, when you ask or when you engage your fans, and when you ask them to support you in exchange for something you're providing, you're providing value to them.

And it's actually a good thing. Like, you're asking, and it's not necessarily a one-sided thing—it actually provides value when you ask, especially for the sale. I think that's a challenging one. It's like, "Ah, I don't want people to feel like I'm trying to manipulate them," but it's like, no—just focus on providing value and then it kind of writes itself.

Jacob: Well, you're creating art, you know, that people appreciate. Hopefully, if people resonate with it and appreciate it and it's touching them, that is a value for people for sure.

Michael: Sweet. Yeah. Well, Jacob, this has been a lot of fun talking about some of the background behind storytelling, brand identity, and learning how to expand your identity to find similar brands, other artists—connecting with them, the foundations of building your community.

Make sure you own your list. Having an email list—it's not outdated. It's actually so important. Everyone I know that is running a successful online business understands this deeply, that email is the jam. It's where the real online business is run.

So I appreciate the foundational guidance that you just shared on the podcast.

And for anyone who's interested in connecting more or learning more about all the awesome stuff that you've got your hands in, where'd be the best place for them to go to dive deeper?

Jacob: Well, they can find out about my record label Cumbancha at cumbancha.com, which is C-U-M-B-A-N-C-H-A.com. We're a record label that promotes and markets artists from all over the world.

They can also go to putumayo.com, which is P-U-T-U-M-A-Y-O.com. That's a great place to discover music from many different cultures of the world and roots music from the U.S. and all kinds of incredible artists.

Just enter that website and you'll find all kinds of great stuff—from playlists to profiles, you name it.

Those would probably be the main destinations. And from there you can learn about the TV show that I worked on, Music Voyager, and some of my work in the travel industry and bringing music into that sphere.

And I'd be happy to hear from your fans as well if they want to reach out directly.

Michael: Well, like always, we'll put all the links in the show notes for easy access. And Jacob, thanks again for being on the podcast today.

Jacob: Thanks for having me, Michael.