Michael Walker: Yeah. All right. I'm excited to be here today with my new friend, Mike Fiebach. So Mike is a serial entrepreneur, e-commerce innovator. He is at the intersection of music, entertainment, and digital marketing. He's the founder of MainFactor and FameHouse. He has driven direct-to-consumer success for global icons—emerging artists that maybe you've heard of, like Eminem, Lady Gaga, Travis Scott. Now he's had multiple successful exits, including sales to SFX Entertainment and Universal Music Group. And so he's been around for decades doing this. He's proven himself as a leader in disrupting e-commerce and brand growth for artists. And so I'm really excited to have him on the podcast today to talk a little bit about the current state of e-commerce and merchandise for musicians—and in particular, with his experience and kind of seeing where things were at and where they're going with music. I'd love to hear his perspective on the current state of the music industry. So Mike, thank you so much for taking the time to be on the podcast today.

Mike Fiebach: Thanks, Michael. Thanks for having me. Definitely excited to be here.

Michael: Absolutely. So to kick things off, maybe we could start with a brief introduction in terms of how you got started in the e-commerce world and found yourself working with artists like Eminem, Lady Gaga, and Travis Scott.

Mike: Yeah, for sure. No, it's great to be on. I've been doing this for 21 years, which is crazy to say, but true. Got my start like a lot of people do—with helping an up-and-coming band, hip-hop group, get off the ground. Very fledgling sort of managerial experience, record label experience. I studied music business in school, but I moved out to California when I was 20.

Got lucky. I got a job with DJ Shadow, who at the time was looking for someone to run his web store and social media channels. I worked for him for four years. Got to tour all over the world—everywhere from Australia, all over Australia, all over the States—while also doing his digital presence.

And we were very early on a lot of things. We were very early on social media. He was one of the first artists on Facebook. We were the first artist, I think, to use Square—a Square card reader—on the road, on tour. So we took out Square to do credit card transactions on the road in like 2008, very early days. He was one of the first artists to have a mobile application. So he was always ahead of the curve with his marketing and technology and using marketing technology, and I was able to become a part of his business and bring him into the new wave of the social media era.

This is like ’06, ’07, ’08. And that kind of made a name for myself in that world, and other artists started to reach out to me to help them. That was the genesis for FameHouse. So Shadow came on as my first client. I started FameHouse in late 2010 with me and a laptop in a bedroom in San Francisco.

Over the course of 10 years, I grew that business into what it is today, which is Universal Music Group's e-commerce division. And I got to work with those artists—on those artists' e-commerce businesses that you mentioned, basically all of Universal's roster. Once we became a part of Universal, we worked on all of Universal, all of their labels, artists' e-commerce businesses end-to-end, and merch businesses end-to-end.

I left Universal in 2020 to start another company. I started that company called MainFactor, and we're doing a lot of the same stuff that FameHouse did—with a couple twists, which I'm happy to talk about.

Michael: Cool. Wow, man. You probably got to see some really cool things working with Universal and the extent of the artists, and I'm definitely curious to hear where things are at.

Now it sounds like about four years ago, you started to develop this new company. So yeah, you just mentioned there's a few different things that you're working on, so let's definitely get into those. But also, I guess before we even enter that, it'd be great to hear your perspective—having decades of experience in the industry.

What do you see as the biggest problems or challenges of today's music industry that artists are working through, and the biggest opportunities of the time?

Mike: Look, it's changed a lot since I came into the industry. When I came in, it was a little bit in this sort of disarray because digital download piracy was rampant. Streaming hadn't taken over yet, but physical sales were going down like crazy because no one was buying CDs—or even at the time, no one was really buying vinyl.

This is like 2004, 2005 when I started getting into the music business. But there was this massive opportunity because there was this proliferation of all these digital tools that helped artists directly connect with their fans, which was the opportunity that we took advantage of with FameHouse—and still the opportunity I'm working on now with MainFactor, my newer company, which is now five years old, which is also crazy to say.

I'd say that the hardest thing these days for artists is all the noise. There's so much noise. You create great music, you're passionate, you're talented, but you don't know where to start.

It's fatigue of choice. There's too much to do. And how do you hone in on what makes sense for you? Does it make sense to utilize TikTok? Does it not? Does it make sense to utilize Instagram? Should you have a merch store when you're just getting off the ground, or should you wait? Should you play shows, or should you just focus on digital content?

There are just so many facets of an artist's business—and there always has been. It's always been complicated. It's always been a complex array of things. But it's gotten more complicated, I think, for an up-and-coming artist because of all the digital tools that they can use in trying to figure out what makes sense for them. So I think that that's one of the hardest things for an up-and-coming artist—where to put their attention.

Michael: Hmm. Yeah.

Mike: Absolutely.

Michael: Yeah. I mean, it definitely seems like it's just—well, it's easier than ever to make noise. To make noise and put it out, right?

Mike: Like, anyone can make noise though, right? So it's like, where do you put your energy? Where are you gonna get the most return on your time investment? And where—if you're trying to build an audience or build a sustainable career, or even just build a side business as an artist where you play coffee shops and small shows, or if you're trying to break into the mainstream—right, whatever you're trying to do, there's so many possibilities of how to do it, and it's hard to figure out where to focus. I think regardless of what stage you're at or what level you're at, I think even really the biggest artists in the world have that struggle too.

Michael: Absolutely. So if the biggest challenge of the day is learning how to cut through the noise when there's so much noise and saturation, I'm curious what your recommendations would be for artists. Let's imagine that someone's listening to this right now, and maybe they are a little bit earlier on, and they're looking to get that initial foothold. They have music—and let's imagine it's actually really good music—but they're trying to figure out, how do I actually find and connect with a fan base? How would you recommend they get started?

Mike: I mean, I wish I had an answer to that that was blanket, because I don't think there is one. I think it's different for every artist. I'd say the only thing that is constant is you have to focus on the art, right? Because none of the other things exist without the art. If your music is not ready for primetime, and your videos that support the music are not ready for primetime, and the graphics—or the photos and graphics and the content that you're gonna post to social media—are subsequently not ready for primetime, you're not gonna get off the ground, right?

So the most important thing is the music. It all comes back to the music. Without the music, I don't have a job. You don't have a job. It's like, the music's gotta be the core of this, right? So that, I think, is the only constant. What I tell each artist that we work with is different depending on their situation, their circumstance, where they are, what the budget is—there are so many factors, right? So that would be my answer to that: start with the music.

Michael: Mm-hmm. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. So it sounds like what you're saying is that there's not necessarily a one-size-fits-all approach to cutting through noise, and it changes frequently. But one thing that's always been at the core is the product—and specifically, your art and your music. And if that's not ready then—there's a few different ways of putting this—but one I've heard is putting lipstick on a pig. It's just hard to be able to actually do anything successfully if you don't have at least that core figured out.

So your recommendation would be to start by focusing on having the best quality art that you possibly can. Do you have any recommendations in terms of how many songs should an artist have before they really dive in, or creating that initial foundation so that they have a marketable product? How do you recommend they do that?

Mike: To be honest with you, we don't work with a lot of ground-up artists. Our core business—and my core business—has been more with established acts, so I don't have a lot of experience with it, to be perfectly honest with you. I have a little bit of experience with it. I guess my—to some degree, uneducated—opinion on that question is that it also depends.

But it only takes one really good one. One really good song. You could work all day long on creating 50 songs, but if not one of them is gonna stand out, then it's a waste of time. You could spend that same amount of time perfecting one. And all it takes is one. We all know that, right? That's why there's such thing as one-hit wonders. Not that that's something you necessarily want to strive for, but it's hard to get even one thing to resonate—whether it's a hit or whether it's just resonating with a small community that you want to resonate with. So yeah, I don't have a lot of experience with up-and-coming acts. We do a little bit of it, but not a ton. But that would be my, at least off-the-cuff answer to that.

Michael: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that definitely makes sense. And yeah, it makes me think about that classic question of what's better: frequency or quality? Do you get better quality through frequency—just by recording and releasing 20 songs or 50 songs or 100 songs—or is it better to really focus on one song and make it as amazing as possible so you kind of have that breakthrough? I'm curious if you have any thoughts about that question of should someone spend more of their time trying to perfect a smaller number of songs, or do you think it's better to get more into a flow of having more songs so that eventually you have one that really resonates?

Mike: I think it depends on the person, because I think some people are really prolific and they create a lot of content really rapidly, and that's how they iterate, and that's how they get to something that's great. And if that's how you get to something that's great, then more power to you, right? It's okay to create 50 songs if it takes you making 50 to get to the one that really can resonate. So I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all for almost anything involving artists. It's bespoke on a case-by-case basis. And I think especially as it relates to the music, I'm not an expert. The music itself, I'm not an expert. I'm more of an expert once the music's there—how do you monetize it with merchandise and direct-to-consumer opportunities. But I do know for a fact that every artist's creative process is different. There's some that I've worked with where they literally perfectly craft each and every song they work on, and they don't rapidly create. And then there's some that I've worked with that rapidly create and they never finish 90% of the songs they start. And I just think it's different creative processes for different types of brains and people.

Michael: Got it. That definitely makes sense. So let's maybe zoom into that part of the process that you really focus on, which is—let's imagine that someone has done the work of crafting something that's unique to them, and they approach you, and they're at a point where they're ready. They're ready to actually monetize. They have a bit of an audience now, and they're looking to productize what they already have. What's your experience in terms of what's working, maybe what's always worked—hasn't changed—and then maybe what's working right now in terms of monetization and products and e-commerce as it relates to a music artist? 

Mike: Yeah, so we, our core focus is how do we help artists make money on their direct-to-consumer slash e-commerce presence? So what does that mean? That means primarily selling t-shirts, hoodies, hats, posters, CDs, vinyl, other types of accessories direct-to-consumer online. We also sell product through other platforms like Amazon, social commerce like Instagram Shop, Facebook Shopping, TikTok Shop, Google Shopping—wherever we can connect product to, we will.

Because we want to be wherever the consumers potentially are, which are on all those different channels. And that's one thing that's changed, right? When I got into this, you just wanted to have a web store. Then it was about getting your social traffic to push to your web store. Now it's about how do you integrate commerce into all of your existing channels.

It's totally evolved as time has gone on. It's no longer about one destination. You want to own as much of your audience as you can by collecting email addresses and SMS and getting traffic to your store. But there are now all these different ways of engaging that audience and engaging that consumer through these different channels, which has changed a lot.

So that’s changed the strategy a lot. But we—once you have an audience, once you have a business—typically is where we come in. We typically come in, I would say, once you're a professional artist, like you're touring for a living, you are making a living off of your art. It's not a side hustle.

That's been what we've done—what I've done—my whole career is work with artists that are established, that have a business, and help them improve upon an existing merchandising business or grow what they already have, or create it from scratch. Because sometimes it doesn’t even exist. That means everything from designing and creating the product, sourcing the product, manufacturing the product, designing and creating the storefront that you operate from online, feeding product into that, stocking it at a warehouse, fulfilling that product, handling customer service concerns as those concerns come in, and also marketing that product.

So leveraging data that you have to run targeted advertising, to do social media posts. Really, end-to-end, we're kind of an outsourced end-to-end e-commerce department—merchandising, e-commerce department—for an artist, a creator, a label, a brand.

So yeah, that's what we do. And I think it’s just changed a lot over the 20 years that I've been doing it. It's become more and more important to an artist's revenue. It's become more and more important if you're concerned about charting, because now the sales that happen through your merchandising sales on your store actually matter for your charting position if you're charting—or it can matter.

So it's evolved a lot. Whereas when I first got into it, it was very much kind of an afterthought for a lot of—not all—artists. But it was important for some, though it wasn't as core as it is now. It's become more and more important.

And the other thing I'd say quickly actually is we are starting to think about how we work with up-and-coming artists. We've launched a beta—it's in beta right now—and you can only sign up to be in the queue for it. But we've launched a platform. It lives at mainfactor.io, and it's a platform in beta that is more for the long tail.

So it's more for someone who's not necessarily at the level yet where they are a professional touring artist that's making a living off of their music, but they want to get something off the ground. They want to get a store up. They want to get a few t-shirts for sale, and they want a team behind—an engine behind it—to help them do that.

So we've launched a beta version of that at mainfactor.io that we will be putting more energy into over the next year to two years.

Michael: Hmm. Alright, cool. So having all this experience working with mostly established artists, but also kind of opening that up to up-and-coming artists as well, I'm curious what some of those big evolutions are that you've kind of witnessed in the past 20 years—from music and kind of to where it's at right now.

Kind of what's—if someone happens to be listening to this live—where should they focus on? And also from there, to be able to zoom out and kind of look at the future of where could this be headed based on your experience?

Mike: Yeah. I think that I don't think merch should be a major focus until you've got, again, the music figured out. I think your live show has to come before you're selling product—probably.

There are these core things that you really should have together before you start spending time on merch because there's only so much time in the day. I mean, look, having a t-shirt here and there—fine, right? But really having a merch business where you're investing in inventory and you're making sure you have product at every show and you have a store that's online 24/7 that you're fulfilling out of—whether it's print-on-demand or you're doing it yourself, or it's through a company like ours—you want to have at least your business off the ground to a certain extent.

Your overall music business off the ground a little bit, probably, before you do that. I'd say once you're ready to do it, I think it's always starting with a few core products. You start with a few things that you think will resonate with your audience. T-shirts are 99.9% of the time the best sellers.

It's probably best to start with a t-shirt. After a t-shirt—hoodie, long sleeve, hat, common accessories. If you're the type of artist where your audience would like to collect physical music, vinyl is great. It's merch. It's basically merch, right? You're selling music, but it's merch. Vinyl's a great product—can be high margin.

Same with CDs. CDs can be a great product for a collectible for your fans and high margin. Cassettes—also something that people buy as a collectible, right? So I'd say these are the core items you want to think about.

I would say you want to get off the ground with one music product—CD, vinyl, or cassette—if you think your audience, if that will resonate with your audience, and a couple of soft goods, and sell them at your shows, sell them on an online shop. But you want to make sure you can handle it, right? Because it's a lot of work.

You have to track the inventory. You have to make sure that you're giving quality product to the consumer. It's like you're starting a business. Going back to what's hard for artists is—many businesses in an artist’s business. Many businesses within a single business.

Streaming music is a business. Publishing is a business. Merch is a business. Touring is a business. I just rattled off four or five. Those are all businesses within a business. And so if you're launching merch, you're launching a company, basically, within your company that does something, and you have to make sure you can do it well.

So I think that's why it's important not to spread yourself thin and try to do all these things all at once and to really be strategic about when you add merch to your core business, basically.

Michael: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's definitely smart. So it sounds like what you're saying is that you need to wait until the time is right. You already have a bunch of different plates spinning, so before you really focus on the merch and monetization there, you should make sure that you have your live show figured out and you have a bit of an audience—that there's going to be a demand for some of those products.

I'm curious—obviously, everything we're talking about is going to depend on where people are at and different situations based on their unique situation—but roughly, at what point do you think it really makes sense for an artist to be thinking about merchandise and investing time and energy into inventory? Is it when they have a certain benchmark of fans on their email list? Or when they've played X amount of shows? Or when do you kind of know that precipice of, “Okay, I think I'm feeling like this is now the right time for it”?

Mike: I hate to keep saying it, but I think it depends. I work with artists—I’ve worked with artists that have millions and millions and millions of fans that can’t sell that much merchandise. And I’ve worked with artists that have a few hundred thousand fans that sell a ton of merchandise.

So it’s less about vanity metrics. It’s more about: do you have the kind of audience that is willing to buy merch? And it’s unfortunately a very qualitative thing. It’s not quantitative. I think there are artists that have fans that are consumers of content that don’t necessarily love the brand of the artist. And then there are artists that have fans that love the content, but almost usually more so love the brand of the artist that they’re supporting.

And I think it’s the artists that create a brand that people follow versus just creating content that people like to listen to or watch.

Michael: Hmm.

Mike: And again, that’s hard to tell from the outside looking in—from my perspective or from a manager’s perspective or a label’s perspective. It’s not something you can quantify. It’s a very qualitative exercise to figure it out.

On the outside looking in—on the inside, if you’re the artist yourself—the best way to figure it out is to try something small. Just make a small batch of shirts and bring it to the show. If they fly off the racks, then you know you have some demand there. If they don’t, then you probably don’t—as far as merch is concerned.

And by the way, it’s fine. I think some of the most successful artists in the history of the industry don’t sell a lot of merch. It’s not a bad thing. It’s just a different type of audience, I think.

Michael: Mm-hmm. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. It sounds like what you’re saying is that it’s important not to just focus on the number of fans, which is almost like a horizontal metric. But someone with a hundred thousand fans might have a lot more sales than someone with a million fans. So it’s not just the number of fans, but also the depth of the connection or the depth of the engagement. It’s kind of like a vertical axis.

Mike: It’s still not quantifiable. Yes, what you’re saying is true, but you can quantify engagement, and engagement, quantifiably, as you look at it on social media, does not necessarily mean merch sales. It’s still two different things.

You can create amazing content that people like to consume and engage around online, but they still are not merch buyers. It’s two different things.

Michael: Yeah, that’s a great point. So even when you map it to number and amount of engagement, really the key thing is the brand connection. And would you say people who have an identity that’s associated with the brand—therefore, like that identity—they’re willing to buy?

I guess maybe that mixed with—you might have an audience that’s just made up of buyers. Like, there’s just more people that buy things, or they have more resources, or they’re the kind of people that buy t-shirts.

Mike: I think it’s more like: does the artist’s brand stand on its own outside of the music?

Michael: Hmm.

Mike: Have they created something that transcends music? And again, it’s not quantifiable. You can’t quantify that. But I mean, we work with Run the Jewels. They’ve got an incredible, an iconic logo that transcends their music, right?

Other examples of that are like Wu-Tang, right? If you see the Wu-Tang logo, it transcends the music that they created. And there are way more examples. I just pulled two out.

But I think it depends. There are exceptions to that even. But I would say, if I had to define it, I would say they’ve created something that goes beyond the music that resonates with the fans.

Michael: Mm-hmm. That’s super interesting and really helpful to hear too. I appreciate the emphasis on the fact that it does depend. Nothing is cookie cutter. Every situation is unique. But it sounds like your advice would be, because that’s the case, the only way to really know is by doing it—by testing and seeing what happens.

Ideally, you do that on a smaller scale so that you can see what happens when you do create a merch line. But that’s kind of the best way to know what the results are going to be—by actually doing it.

And the way you define what is that somewhat nebulous way to know if it’s going to do well generally is when it transcends the actual music itself. It becomes more about this brand identity that stands on its own without the song.

Mike: It’s something that can be made into a clothing line or made into just a shirt that stands for something beyond just an album or a song.

Yeah, and I think what you just said is actually really important for anyone up and coming. I do think just trying stuff is key. You have to time when you try it, because you want to make sure if you’re going to put something out there into the world, that it’s really well done and that it’s a nice shirt, or that it’s a nice hat, or that it’s a well-made piece of vinyl.

But when you’re ready to do it, give it a shot, because that’s the only way that you’ll know if you have that type of audience. If you’re playing a room full of 300 people, the only way you’ll know if they’re a merch-buying audience is if you put some merch in the room.

Michael: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It’s an important reminder. It’s easy to get lost in planning or thinking or hoping. But then—what is that quote? “Man plans, God laughs.”

Where the best of plans—in practice, when you actually do it and try something—that’s when you get the real results and the response from it.

Mike: Totally. A hundred percent.

Michael: So in terms of this brand message coming across in a way that transcends the music, I’m wondering: is there a practical way for artists who are listening to this right now—who want their music to stand for something bigger than just the song itself, who want to create a movement or have that bigger identity—do you have any tips or thoughts or advice for how someone can dig inward and create the community or their music in a way that aligns with that bigger purpose?

Mike: It depends. It depends on the music, the brand, the art, the audience. I think yes, there are ways of doing it, but there's no one-size-fits-all. I think that, again, the most important thing for up-and-comers is the music because none of this exists without great music. So, you have to nail that first. If you haven't nailed that, then some of this other stuff doesn't matter yet. You have to nail the content first and foremost. Once the content is there, then you have to start thinking about these other things, and what those other things will be depends on your music. It depends on your genre. It depends on where you think your audience is. Is your audience going to live on TikTok? Is your audience going to live on Facebook? Is your audience going to not be on social media for some reason? 

There are different ways of doing this. I think there's something to be said about doing things differently. You don't have to follow the way that other people have done it. Maybe the way you stand out from a marketing perspective is by doing things differently. You're not on social media, or you only use social media in one very specific way. I'm just spitballing right now, but I think it totally depends. I've never really subscribed to one-size-fits-all strategies because I don't think that works. You can take learnings from what other people have done, general methodologies and strategies, and figure out how to apply it to yourself or to a certain artist. But usually, it’s not going to be the same formula that someone else did. It’s not going to be the same checklist or outline. I’m not saying don’t look at what other people have done; I think that's important. But I don’t think just because something worked for someone else in the same genre, with similar music and a similar audience, does that mean it’s going to work for you? Not necessarily. You have to really think about your specific scenario and timing and all these other factors.

Michael: Hmm, a hundred percent. Awesome. So, maybe it might be helpful if we were imagining that you were having a conversation with a new artist, and you didn’t really know their situation, but obviously, because it depends on their music and their situation, you need to get to know who they are. Are there any specific questions that someone listening to this right now can reflect on to look inward and look at their music? Pull out some of those gems that will be different for everyone, but are there any good questions they could ask themselves to clarify what their bigger picture brand identity messages might be or what their merch might be about?

Mike: I think that it goes back to the music. You need to look at what is resonating with the music because some of the artists and brands who have built something that goes way beyond the music, it usually is derived in some way from a song or even just a lyric in a song or a reference to some inspiration that the album was inspired by. There are so many different things. But I think that, if you want to build a brand bigger than your music as it relates to merch, you have to figure out how to get to a place where you're selling product that doesn’t just have your name on it. That could mean an icon, a logo—something that’s not the name, but just an icon that represents the name. Another great example is Hieroglyphics Red, the legendary rap group from California. There’s a lot of examples, right? The Rolling Stones is another one.

Michael: Hmm.

Mike: Yeah, if you want to get there, or I would say that nine times out of ten, you can do something like that. You can sell something that doesn’t have your name on it, but people know what it means. Or you’ve created a brand name that’s so strong that your artist’s name almost stands on its own in all these other verticals. The best example of that in the world is probably Taylor Swift. She’s created something that transcends music. Her name, her image, her brand—it goes way beyond the records she’s making. So, I mean, that’s the biggest example you could give right now. But it’s hard to pinpoint specifically what you can do other than, and I hate repeating myself, but it really is my true advice: go back to the music. You have to let the music resonate first, and then those things will come from it.

Michael: Hmm.

Mike: Awesome.

Michael: Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. I think it’s important that we come back to the foundations because common knowledge isn’t always common practice. We need to focus on what’s important. So, I appreciate the reminders. Mike, it’s been great connecting today and having a conversation about where things have been, where they’re going for artists right now—how they can get in touch with something bigger than just the music while staying connected to their music, since that’s the heart of it all. I appreciate you taking the time to be on the podcast today. If anyone here is interested in learning more about you, either the e-commerce brand (let’s say that someone here is an established artist who’s already making a full-time living and wants to reach out), or if someone’s interested in that beta group, what would be the best place for them to go to connect?

Mike: So, MainFactor.com is our main website. You can contact us through there. If you’re an up-and-coming artist and you’re interested in getting a merch business spun up, you can sign up for the beta at MainFactor.io, which is our platform for up-and-coming artists who are just getting started. Those are the two places you can go: MainFactor.com, MainFactor.io. We also have an Instagram, if you search MainFactor, and we have a LinkedIn as well. You can connect with us through those two channels. Our Instagram’s not super active, and our LinkedIn’s somewhat active. We stay busy with our clients’ stuff, so we don’t have as much time for our own, but we try. You can get in touch with us through any of those places.

The only other thing I’d say, which I don’t know if I really said, is that you should focus, as you grow and create content that people are resonating with, on capturing your audience. That means socials, emails, and your website. You want to make sure you’re connected to your audience in some way because that’s the marketing power you have as an artist these days: your ability to directly connect with your fans. That’s a big part of what we do, not just the product side, but how do you get in front of that audience?

Yeah, happy to connect with anyone. MainFactor.com is the best way, or MainFactor.io if you’re an up-and-coming artist.

Michael: Cool. Fantastic. Well, Mike, thanks again for being on the podcast. As always, we’ll include the links in the show notes for easy access.

Mike: Thanks, Michael. Appreciate it, man. Thanks for having me.