Michael Walker: Yeah. All right. I'm excited to be here today with my new friend Thierry Ascarez. So, Thierry is a seasoned music industry executive with nearly two decades of experience across major labels, startups, and AI-driven innovation. He built a company in San Francisco before returning to Europe to drive business growth, and he's currently shaping the future of digital music as the Head of Business and Corporate Development at Winamp.

And today I'm excited to have him on the podcast to talk a little bit about, for musicians in a day and age where so much of music relies on streaming and streaming for many artists isn't a very sustainable business model in terms of revenue that's generated, what are ways that artists can generate more of a sustainable income with their music without relying on streaming?

So, Thierry, it's great to have you on the podcast, and I appreciate you taking the time to be here today.

Thierry Ascarez: Yes. Hello Michael. Thank you very much for having me. I'm very happy to be here.

Michael: And it's rare that I get to connect with someone who is a mix of—your first name is French and your last name is Spanish. Is that right?

Thierry: Indeed. Yeah, that's right. That's correct. My native language is French, and I do also speak a bit of Spanish, yes.

Michael: Awesome. Talk about diversifying things. Yeah. Diversifying revenue outside of streaming. So maybe to kick things off, could you share just a brief introduction into yourself and how you started with Winamp and you kind of found yourself in this role?

Thierry: Yeah, sure. So I started my career—today, I'm 46—I started my career in the music industry 20 years ago, working for, back then, the fourth major, which was EMI Music. EMI Music got acquired—cut into pieces—and acquired by Warner and Universal. But back then, it was a major label: The Beatles, Pink Floyd, so one of the major labels.

So I started there in charge of marketing and promotion, promoting bands and, back then, CDs, albums, going to media. And then quickly the digital era came, and we were selling ringtones. At the time, ringtones were a thing, so I was selling ringtones of famous songs. And so that’s how I started—mid, I would say, 2008—in the digital music, digital space.
 And then in 2010, I moved to a small startup in Belgium, Europe, and we were building a SaaS to create your own radio station. Basically, a bit the same as YouTube, but instead of TV, a radio station. Of course, we were still very connected to the music industry because when you talk about radio, you talk about music.

And so I left in 2012 and I moved to San Francisco to create the subsidiary of that company. And long story short, we developed the company, we grew the company. In 2014, we had the opportunity to acquire two companies. One of them was Shoutcast, which is a streaming software, and Shoutcast had a sister company called Winamp.

And so the deal was to acquire both of them. So that’s why in 2014, we acquired Winamp from AOL with the idea that such a brand, iconic brand in the music industry, will play a new role in the music industry. And so, after all the streaming adventures we had, we sold the company—the streaming company—we decided around 2021–2022 to start working on Winamp and do something about it and revive the brand. And now that’s what we’re doing.
 So I can tell you more about Winamp, but that’s the story since I started my career in the music industry.

Michael: Hmm.

Thierry: Awesome.

Michael: Yeah, ringtones—that is an example. Talk about diversifying revenue streams, too. I remember the age when ringtones were—I had a bunch of ringtones for my favorite songs on my flip phone, the Motorola Razr.

Thierry: Exactly. There were no smartphones, so we were partnering with brands like Sony Ericsson, Motorola—all those pre-smartphone devices. Indeed.

Michael: Awesome. So yeah, I would love to hear a little bit more about Winamp and what kind of the primary problem is that you set out to solve with the platform.

Thierry: Yeah. So we thought—as I said, we had time to think about it—and we could have created a new DSP, for example, like another Spotify or Deezer. But we had the idea of creating something for the future. So we were looking at what was coming, and we realized that streaming was going to hit a certain plateau in terms of business models, especially for independent artists.

And that’s what’s happening today. There are many, many numbers out there, but less than one percent of the artists, especially independent artists, are making a living out of streaming.

So we thought, okay, with Winamp, how could we help independent artists to gain control over their content and also find new streams of revenue aside from streaming?

That was the whole idea. And also we have that vision—or what we say internally—that they need to become more independent. So today, they are dependent. We say “from dependent to independent” because the reality is most of the artists today are dependent on social media, the DSPs. They don’t have control of all their content. They don’t have control over their music.

So basically we thought, okay, let’s build a platform. So Winamp is a new platform really to manage and monetize their music aside from streaming.

Really complementary. We don’t say streaming is bad, but we know there are some limits. So that’s the whole idea with Winamp.

Michael: Mm. Awesome. Oh, I love that idea of helping artists own more of their business, own more of their platform.

Yes. Could you share a little bit more details about Winamp in terms of how do artists monetize their music on the platform and how do they build an audience?

Thierry: Yes, sure. So again, of course, you want to be on all the DSPs. You want to distribute your music because that's a no-brainer today.

That's where you want to start. Even though as an independent artist or a young artist, you're pretty certain you won't make a ton of money, but you still want to do it. So, first of all, we offer distribution. It's a basic service. A lot of companies do it, but it's the first brick that you need to start your career.

So, you can distribute your music. But then we thought, okay, what else do they need? How could we simplify their life?

So within Winamp, you will be able to manage your copyrights—so royalties, manage and collect copyrights. You are also able to sell your music, to license your music to brands. So within Winamp, you have a service. We have different services, and licensing is one of them.

You are also able to collect your revenue coming from YouTube Content ID. It's a very important part of the revenue because YouTube is big, and you want to get that money.

You can also create a fan zone. So it's really about creating a subscription and having fans subscribe to your content. And as an artist, being able to sell anything you want to your fans.

So let's say I was talking about being under the social media—not having full control—there, you can decide, okay, maybe I post, instead of posting 10 free content on Instagram, I will now post eight and keep two for my fans and maybe monetize them, like an acoustic version or a B-side or maybe pictures—and that’s happening in the fan zone.

You can monetize signed pictures or videos in the fan zone. And then finally, we also believe in digital assets—collectibles—what used to be called NFTs. But we believe there is great technology there and also a new IP that an artist can develop and sell.

So these are the different services that you will find as an artist within Winamp. And on top of that, we're adding a layer of marketing tools—one platform to push all your content to all the social networks instead of having five different logins and passwords.

Having a Linktree page, creating basic websites—we believe it's a pity that artists have given up creating their websites. You know, it's the first entry to their universe. So we're giving the opportunity to have a website and create ad campaigns as well.

So you see, this is the whole one-stop platform. In business, in accounting, you have ERPs, which are SaaS, aggregating different services to manage your business.
 And our idea is, an artist, a band—at the end of the day—they have fans. But you could also consider those fans as customers. So we really want to give them a platform to become their own merchants and be able to, again, manage and monetize their craft.

Michael: Mm. So cool. Yeah, it's funny, you're definitely speaking my language.
 Yeah. This is—we built a software as a service called Street Team that's with the same heart and mind and many of the same needs and issues that you've discovered are the things that we also notice are an issue. And we're building a software as a service to help build a community in a similar way.

So I think it's a sign that there's a great need right now. So I think it's awesome that there are platforms like Winamp that are helping connect artists with their fans.

Thierry: Yeah. And we see a lot of companies. The industry is really evolving at the moment.

There is a new model because, again, streaming is not enough. And we see a lot of services emerging, a lot of startups emerging.

But we also see, in the traditional SaaS industry, aggregation of services—because it's very difficult for a business to survive when you just offer one service. And there is a reason for that because you cannot have all the users using plenty of different services.

So we thought, also to help artists simplify their life, to have everything in one place. So that's really the core idea. It's not a huge revolution, what we offer.

But the revolution is more to have one place to aggregate all of that and make it really simple and user-friendly. So that's the whole idea.

Michael: Yep. I love it. I'm especially curious in the digital collectibles side of things. You referenced like NFTs and—yeah—obviously there was kind of a big bubble pop that happened with NFTs, for good reason. Because, I don't know, like gifs of hamsters shouldn't sell for millions of dollars.

Yeah. But I also have always felt that there's an opportunity there for musicians with their art to actually monetize them. So I'm curious to hear your perspective on that and how artists can build and use these collectibles on the platform.

Thierry: Yeah, and you're right. But like any new technology, there is usually a couple of waves, and one of them is the hype.

And the hype was two, three years ago, with NFTs going completely crazy in terms of pricing, as you said. But now we see that the blockchain technology is still there and adopted more and more, especially in terms of payments. You see a lot of solutions now to have globalized payment without friction.

And so the technology is there; it's not going away. And we've been big believers of that technology. And we also have been big believers of digital contracts.

And if you think about it, an artist—what they are selling is an IP. They're selling a song, lyrics, publishing rights. And so with the blockchain and with digital assets, with the contracts written on the blockchain, you can have new IPs.

For example, you could have the original song—a digital format. For example, you have the original recording of Let It Be from The Beatles, and it's a physical tape. But you could decide as an artist, "Okay, this is a song, and this one is the original digital recording." And thanks to the blockchain, you could make a product out of that, and you could sell it on the Fan Zone, for example, in Winamp.

And maybe today it will be worth, I don't know, 10, 50, 100 dollars. But the person who will buy it will believe and will be a fan. And maybe in 2, 3, 5, 10 years, that original version of the song might, you know, be worth, I don't know, 10,000, 100,000—who knows?

But it's a really new way of owning a part of the artist or the band that you like in a digital way. So that's what we are allowing within Winamp with that service.

Michael: Hmm. That's amazing. Out of curiosity, which blockchain are you guys using for creating the digital collectibles?

Thierry: Yeah, so we've been working with Solana. Okay. And we've experimented with different technologies. We're also creating our own coin—the Llama Coin—because Winamp was associated a lot with the llama, the animal, in the past.

And so we're creating our own coin so it's easier for the artist to exchange. And also, we want to have a system of rewards. So that's the whole ecosystem we're building.

Michael: Mm.

Thierry: Awesome.

Michael Walker: So I'm curious where you see things going. Like, obviously technology and the music industry and just everything is changing so quickly nowadays. And it feels like we're approaching the—what do they call it—the technological singularity.

But I'm curious where you think some of the big next waves of the music industry are going that maybe people kind of have their heads in the sand right now, and they're not really thinking about like, "Wow, I should really be focusing on this opportunity."

Any insights into where you think things are going that maybe people are kind of overlooking?

Thierry: Yeah, of course. That's a great question. And we haven't been mentioning AI since the beginning of our discussion.

Obviously, this is a very hot and big topic. So I think this is a space to watch, of course, and there are two sides of that space.

The one side is, of course, you cannot do anything you want with IP, and you need a framework. And a lot of people are working on that at the moment.

There are a lot of discussions and debates about companies training their model without having the rights.

So I believe it's very important to have a framework. But at the same time, it's also fantastic because you can, as a producer, as an artist, you can be—That's my opinion—you can be even more creative. You can maybe have a speed that you didn't have in the past.

Basically, when we had the synthesizer, when it arrived in the seventies, it was a little bit the same. So I think there shouldn't be too much of a worry also about the AI, because it's a fantastic tool. So I would say, in the future, I won't be surprised to have more and more bands and musicians working with AI for their production.

And completely, you know, assume that version of what they do—not being ashamed of using AI, but it being completely part of the creative process. And I'm talking about the music, but I'm also talking about visual effects when they do live relationships with the audience.

You can interact with lights, with the phones. I think there are tremendous paths ahead of us in terms of interaction during live shows and using AI, for example.

Michael: Mm. Awesome. Yeah, I totally agree. So it sounds like what you're saying is that one of the big things that's happening right now is sort of this big wave around AI.

And there's a lot of valid concern and debate around what's the ethical way to train these models.

But regardless of where things fall on that spectrum, this is technology that seems like it's going to be here to last, and it's only going to get more and more pronounced. But rather than it being something that we feel ashamed of using, it's going to be a natural part of the creative process and augmenting our creativity.

Thierry: Yeah, definitely. As long as there is a framework respecting IPs and copyrights, I think that's how it's going to evolve. You cannot stop technology. I saw a post, I don't know, one or two months ago on LinkedIn — very funny — it was teachers demonstrating in the seventies or sixties against the calculator in front of the White House. And it's really about the same thing. I guess it's beautiful technology. It's going to help creativity and innovation. It's really fascinating. But again, you cannot steal things, so it needs that framework.

And then I was thinking about your question also, about the future. We believe — our vision — it's really about a new model that is emerging in the industry, the music industry. And we believe that more and more, the independent artists will have control over what they do. As I said, becoming their own small businesses or small merchants because they completely lost that control.

And so I see really a future where they will be equipped with an app, a website, merchandising, and have the tools to be efficient and also to have a team. Something I didn't say — we've been obviously talking with a lot of artists — and a lot of them were telling us, "Look, this is very beautiful to have a platform like Winamp, but I also need to concentrate on my craft, on my music, and sometimes I don't have the time to use a platform."

And so we thought about that, and we've created what we call the Job Board within Winamp. So you can find collaborators. You can find, I don't know, maybe a marketing assistant or a photographer or a producer. Or you can submit your profile and ask, "Can I be hired by someone?" And so really improving collaboration.

And then if you don't have the money to pay that person, you can split your revenue within Winamp to hire collaborators.

Michael: Wow, that's super interesting. So in addition to there being a job board where you can have requests for certain roles if you don't have the initial funding for it, but if someone believes in the project, then you can actually promise a royalty on their revenue in the future?

Thierry: You can. You can choose any line of revenue: copyright, Content ID, licensing, Fan Zone, collectibles, and say, "Okay, that person has helped me on that project, so he or she will get like 5–10% of that project or even that song." So it's really how the platform has been built.

Michael: That's so cool. So you can do it on a project-by-project basis, even for like a song or for an album or EP?

Thierry: And if you are happy with the team that you've created, you can rehire them and create a team and have a team of collaborators in the platform.

Michael: That's really cool.

Thierry: Yeah.

Michael: And when you create those kinds of contracts, are those all done through like smart contracts, like a blockchain contract?

Thierry: No. These are traditional contracts. Not yet, actually. It's a good idea. So we should explore that.

Michael: Cool. That's awesome. I love that you can create these sort of collaborative teams that are based on profit share or revenue share.

Thierry: That's needed. Artists today spend so much time on social networks. I was talking with an artist a month ago, and he was telling me 50% of his time — he has become a social media manager at the same time as being a singer and a guitarist — and so it's a lot of time. So I thought, okay, if he could save maybe 30% of that time and concentrate more on music, which is his passion at the end, it would be great.

Michael: I mean, I'm thinking about now — my head's kinda in future technology things that are evolving — and I just want to hear your perspective on things like, I don't know, today I saw a few new announcements from robotics, and it seems like we're pretty close to actually having at-home robots that are sort of like personal assistants for helping around the house.

Then there's — this is also the year of agents with AI — where they're kind of doing more and more on their own. Do you think that there's a fundamental difference between this technological revolution compared to previous ones, in that this isn't our first rodeo and we've had other technological revolutions that have always come with fear and concern, and it has disrupted a lot, but then it kind of comes back and now we're more productive, we're more creative, we're able to replace those previous jobs?

Do you think that there's a fundamental difference between superintelligence and this type of new technology with AI that is different from previous technological revolutions, in that this is actually going to be able to replace basically all manmade things, including music? Or do you see this as more like all the other technological revolutions, where it's going to be a big breakthrough, but ultimately humans are going to be able to use this as a tool?

Thierry: Look, this is a very, very broad question. I don't have that crystal ball. I'm, by nature, optimistic. So I believe that humans are smart enough to use technology for good reason and to improve our life, and basically not to do harm. I'm not anxious or concerned. And when I hear your question, what I'm really confident about is that—and to go back to music and the music industry—is that music has always been a way to transmit, provide, and give emotions.

And so that's what makes us human—it's emotions. So I'm very confident that no matter how the technology evolves, how the robots, how the rockets are going to Mars or whatever, I am very confident that we will still need and be very drawn into emotions. That's something we need, and music will continue to serve that.

For example, I don't see how you could replace concerts with a physical band playing in front of physical people. It's an experience that is, to me, almost impossible to replicate. There are people who will argue maybe with the VR headsets. But I mean, everyone has been to a concert with that synergy with the band and the rest of the crowd, and everybody cheering together and feeling the vibes in your body. I don't see how you could make this with technology.

So my point is that even though the technology is going faster and faster, and always improving, I'm confident that the human will always go back to emotional experiences, like listening to music live or just on your own and having the chills because of the music.

Michael: Hmm. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It sounds like what you're saying is that one thing that AI and advanced technology can't really do is replace the emotion that you experience as a human—and the community and the connection—surely at the root of music itself. It sort of transcends the different parts of our brains to break down walls and bring us together. I think you're right—there's a unique place for music and communities in this future.

Thierry: I would tell anyone being anxious about AI and the pace of technology to think about music, and think about what it gives you as a human. The same with maybe reading a poem or watching a beautiful painting. I think anyone anxious about technology thinking about that would be reassured. Or watching nature or things like that. That will always be there, and we will always need that.

Michael: Well, like always, we'll put the links in the show notes for easy access. It's been great connecting today and even going into outer space a little bit, coming back, landing, coming back to the roots of music and community. It was fun.