Michael Walker: Yeah. Alright. I'm excited to be here today with my new friend, Taylor Winchester. Taylor is an industry leader in the music industry. He has worked with labels like Epitaph, Nonesuch, and Concord Music Group, promoters like Live Nation and Danny Wimmer Presents. He's helped artist teams like John Legend, Billy Strings, and Leon Ryans to be able to grow their reach and ticket sales.

And today he focuses on building tech and tools to help artists and teams connect with an audience. He leads business growth at Found.ee, which equips artists with cutting-edge marketing and ad tools to be able to connect with their fans. So I'm really excited to have him on the podcast today to talk a little bit about the current state of the music industry and how, in many ways, it's harder than ever to actually build a relationship and connect with your fans. What are some of the tools that are available so that you actually can build a real relationship?

So Taylor, thanks for taking the time to be on the podcast today.

Taylor Winchester: Yeah, absolutely, Michael. Thanks for having me.

Michael: So, to kick things off, maybe you could share a little bit about your background and how you became part of Found.ee.

Taylor: Yeah, absolutely. So, as you mentioned, my career started in the industry more on the live side with Live Nation. I worked at a 2,000-cap club venue in Charlotte, North Carolina, called The Fillmore. We also had a boutique amphitheater out back that was about 5,000-cap. I worked at Live Nation for a little over five years.

I kind of worked into sports for a short stint after Live Nation and then came back into music. I worked more in my own self, kind of a freelance capacity, if you will, as a consultant working on some tour marketing efforts, working with festivals for digital marketing and media buying strategies. And then in 2021, I joined the Found.ee team as Director of Revenue, really wearing many hats.

We are a relatively smaller team. I do a little bit of everything, from business development, building relationships across the industry with folks in labels and artist teams that are using our tools as a part of their marketing and media mix. The tools are built to be self-serve, so anybody can sign up for a Found.ee account. There are some paid tiers as well that provide a few more detailed or more robust tools, if you will.

Today I do a combination of product development with the team and strategy on that front. But then also we converse and consult with the folks that are using our platform in terms of their marketing strategy, some of their goals, and ways to utilize our tools within their wider marketing mix.

Michael: Hmm. Awesome. Yeah, that sounds very relatable. I feel like I'm in similar territory. Having built these tools and worked directly with the artists to help them cut through the noise and connect with their fans, I'm wondering, what have you found to be the biggest problems of the music industry right now, and the problems specifically that you set out to solve with Found.ee? I'd be curious to hear your perspective on that.

Taylor: Yeah, I mean, it's a great question, and I think it could go in many different directions probably. I think data is always a challenge with marketing specifically, in terms of trying to not only capture fan data and own some of that data, but also connect the dots on attribution.

That's one of the questions we get quite often. In the space of streaming in today's world, the DSPs don't necessarily share this explicit data to know where that stream came from. So, that's one of the biggest challenges. We don't necessarily have tools that can overcome those direct challenges in the sense of being able to hack into Spotify and know that the person that's listening came from this specific ad per se. But we equip artists and artist teams with pre-save pages, tools that allow capturing that first-party data—the emails, SMS—throughout that flow or that funnel.

That allows those teams and artists to then directly communicate with those fans and continue to evolve that fan journey from just maybe the first listen touchpoint, in terms of engagement with our tools and our pre-save pages or music listening pages, down into finding ways to remarket to them based on different touchpoints that you might have as well.

Michael: Hmm. Cool. I was literally just having a conversation with one of our clients like two days ago, a band called First to Eleven. They have over 690 million streams on their YouTube channel for their music. They were promoting their tour. They basically had created a campaign to sell tickets to their shows.

We were building a funnel for them, and there was a moment where I was like, “Okay, so yeah, we're gonna track, we're gonna set up payment processing so you can sell these.” And they were like, “Well actually, we don't have access to that info.”

I'm like, “Wait, what? You don't know? There's no way for you to be able to, like, have a list of who the people were that bought the tickets or to be able to send a tracking event when someone purchases it?”

They were like, “Yeah, no, it's just this black box.”

Taylor: What? Yeah, it's a little backwards in some ways. I mean, having worked at the venue side and the promoter side and been a Talent Buyer, and then marketing shows, I kind of understand being on that side that in many ways, as the promoter, you're paying for the artist to come, and then you're also, in most cases, doing a lot of the marketing. But at the same time, you're relying on that artist to do their own marketing for that said same show.

And in many ways, I think there could be arguments made that that data should be passed along to the artist for sure. But yeah, the ticketing systems are a whole other kind of battle and challenge in terms of tracking, placing pixels, and tracking customer journeys — not only building audience but just showing attribution of where those purchases are coming from.

And so I think with that, what I'm seeing — and this goes broader across multiple industries, not just music — we're seeing more and more of the way to measure or look at your approach isn't so much driving just strictly based off of attribution. Because 2010 to 2015, 16, really probably even a little bit later, you could just go to Facebook and Instagram and run ads, and you could very easily see that attribution.

But with the advancement of consumer privacy laws and protection around data, more people are now opting out of that kind of tracking per se.

So oftentimes we just kind of recommend: take a traditional media approach in the sense of — you need to try to find ways to reach people across multiple channels instead of just social media. Obviously, that first-party data is important because you can have a direct conversation with those fans.

But also, are there tools — and this is where we at Found.ee come into play — like creating tools that allow what we call a little bit of democratizing advertising. Formerly, you'd have to go direct to some of these major media publishers like Rolling Stone or Pitchfork or even think about cable TV. If you wanted to get a 30-second commercial spot in somebody's living room to promote a show or promote an album release, you had to go direct and pay a pretty massive minimum.

So there are tools out there — Found.ee is one of them — that allow a little bit more access to a wider net in terms of your paid media. Look at ways that you can reach people where they are, instead of just assuming they're only going to be on social media.

Social media is obviously still very important. But yeah, just looking at ways to kind of think about a more comprehensive approach — which, based on some of the stuff I've read and seen from your, or listened to in your other podcast — you talk about that a little bit too. Creating that funnel is important, and finding those multiple touchpoints down that journey is equally important.

Michael: Hmm. 100%. So we were just talking about owning your fan data rather than building your audience on a platform that you don't fully own, while also acknowledging the benefit of these tools and these platforms that have billions of people who use them every day.

I'm curious what you've found working best in terms of a compelling reason for fans to sign up for an email list or a compelling reason for them to enter the funnel. What are some of the things that you see working best right now for Found.ee?

Taylor: Yeah, I mean, that's a great question.

It's a case-by-case scenario. But in many cases, we're not as involved in that specific piece of it. We definitely make recommendations and try to help guide strategy or give ideas based on past experiences.

In my past experience, it's always finding a good incentive. That incentive obviously depends — on touring, or merch packages with a new album release.

Really, what are — as opposed to just, "Hey, sign up for weekly newsletters" — what's that call to action that's going to differentiate yourself from any other newsletter that's out there or email list?

Looking at creative ways there — also, giving a little more. This is, I think, a little more challenging in some ways because you really need to think this through — but what type of content are you actually distributing on that newsletter list or that email list?

Is it just sales? Because if it's a salesy kind of approach every time I get an email, then I'm more likely to probably remove myself from that list.

So I think just thinking about a way that incentivizes somebody to sign up, that gives them that call to action. That could be merch package giveaways, ticket giveaways — those types of call-to-actions are probably going to drive the needle a little bit further than just a generic, "Don't miss the upcoming news from my newsletter list."

Michael: Yep. Super smart. So it sounds like what you're saying is that the best way to do it is to create a good incentive or a reason why they're joining, as opposed to just joining for notifications. But if you actually have a gift or something valuable that you're giving to them, then it's a good, compelling reason for them to join. Awesome.

Taylor: Yeah, exactly. I kind of think about it similar to a Patreon. Why would somebody sign up?

Obviously, Patreon — oftentimes you're monetizing that — as opposed to, like, someone's not paying to sign up for a newsletter list. But what kind of content can you give that is outside of and separate from what they're going to get from your social media account or from just doing some quick research online?

That can be special. It can be incentivized based on a giveaway, or it could just be really cool content and behind-the-scenes footage that you don't necessarily see on social media — that you get by being on the newsletter list.

Michael: Hmm. Sweet. So how about in terms of monetization? For artists who've started building a list — let's say it's first-party data, like a phone number or an email address — and now they're looking at: how do we build a deeper relationship with those fans, and how do we start to turn a more casual listener into a dedicated fan and someone that actually supports you and buys something from you?

Have you seen any particular offers or things that are working right now as it relates to artists being able to monetize their audience?

Taylor: I don't have any specific examples at the moment, but I would say I think we're definitely in a period where we should be a little more cognizant and careful about being overly salesy and just trying to monetize.

I was reading something the other day that someone shared on LinkedIn — talking about the timeframe of essentially all these album variants of just basically the same album, just different colors. Those different types of variants — some fans might start to feel like all you're doing is pushing another sale, as opposed to really building the relationship with the fans.

And there's tons of content out there nowadays that talks about the value of creating a really engaged fan, as opposed to just somebody that streams or buys one album and then moves on to the next.

So I think you have to be careful about it. I don't have a specific example of things that are working well, but I would say using — whether it's a newsletter or social media post or really any communication — find a balance between asking for something from that fan and giving the fan something.

That goes back to behind-the-scenes footage or Q&As on Instagram Stories — something that gives you the... Think about your content strategy in terms of something that's going to build value for that engaged fan and get an engaged listener, as opposed to just trying to move product.

And then I think, more times than not, as you get those engagement touchpoints, you can find ways to then work that into the next level of that communication in terms of selling a product.

Michael: Mm-hmm. Awesome. I like it. Yeah. It’s not lost on me that the Director of Revenue at the company—the number one piece of advice that you just shared around monetization—is not focusing so much on the sales aspect of it and focusing more on the value that you're providing, and showing up and doing it in a way that you're focusing on connecting and building a relationship. And from there, one way to do that is by having exclusive content that they wouldn't get anywhere else. But the most important thing is kind of focusing on the relationship and you setting things up in a way that you are providing value and you're not pushing people away because they think all you're in is just me, me, me.

Taylor: Yeah, exactly. And I mean, this—I feel like this word has gotten overused—but it is always relevant, and it's that authenticity. Being authentic in terms of the way you put content out and really being yourself. But understanding and recognizing that authenticity is what's going to really—it's not always the music that connects the fan with the artist. A lot of it is the personality of the brand, the authenticity behind that artist that people connect with. So obviously the music needs to speak for itself to a certain degree, but it's also much more than just that. So yeah, as to your point, Michael, as somebody that's worked in a sales capacity and in growing business, my M.O. is really more relationship building, showing value—even if it doesn't necessarily mean a direct sale for me right away. It's more about what can I bring to the table in an authentic manner that helps clients or potential clients, prospects as well, and provides that value. And I think artists can approach that in a very similar way in terms of what are you giving to your fans outside of just the music.

Michael: Hmm. That's great. It reminds me of a concept I heard as it relates to marketing and sales—that one of the strongest words—in fact, I think that they did a study on what were the strongest, most compelling words in marketing—and up at, like, near the top of the list was the word you. And down low on the list was I, or me, or we. And the takeaway was that the marketing—when it's focused on providing value and focused on the other person—that is a lot more relevant. And it shows people that you care. And it kind of comes back to the roots of what you're talking about.

Taylor: Yeah. Agreed, 100%. And it's—people want to find ways to relate, especially if it's—I mean, you can relate to a song, of course—but if you're an artist and you're trying to create a consistent and lifelong fan, there's got to be more than just that one song that captures that relatability. I think that goes for many things outside of music as well. But obviously, in terms of artistry and building a following, it's not just putting out good music anymore. Which, as somebody that's also a creator myself, I struggle because I'm not doing the creative piece full-time. But it's much easier for me to tell folks what they should be doing content-strategy-wise and putting out three reels a day on Instagram than it is for me to go create that content myself. So I understand the struggle. But people don't say be authentic just to say it. That really is what people relate to when you think about why you get drawn to other people's social channels or whatever content they're putting out.

Michael: Good stuff. So I'm curious to hear from your perspective—what do you think are some of the pervasive myths or misconceptions that people have about music and about the music industry that, looking back in the future, it'll be like, oh, that just wasn't true?

Taylor: Hmm. Great question. One of the first things I think about is something that our platform offers: programmatic advertising. And not to be so me and us here, but I look at—

Michael: You're building it for the folks who are listening to this right here, so it's definitely—I know where it's coming from.

Taylor: Yeah, true. And I think about it in terms of marketing in general, right? Obviously, any independent artist out there has to think about—resources are always a struggle, in the sense of investing in your own career—not only in the money that it takes to produce music or put an album out, but how are you trying to grow the fan base outside of just your organic methods of TikTok and Instagram, right? And advertising is something that we kind of focus on, and we have tools—specifically, programmatic advertising is primarily what we offer at the moment.

And as an industry, I've seen and heard folks kind of just stick to their guns of paid social media, but there are so many potential fans out there that are listening to podcasts and streaming audio. Your podcast is a perfect example of that. So how do you get advertisements on that? Obviously, you can go directly to somebody like yourself and say, "Hey, we want to sponsor," or something to that degree. But there are other tools out there. And the same thing goes for connected TV advertising.

So to come back to your question, one of the myths I hear is, "Oh, well, we're not seeing conversions from display banner ads or connected TV or streaming audio." And that's a fair statement to say, but it kind of goes back to my point of—if you have an affordable way to expand your marketing efforts outside of only doing paid Instagram ads, why would you not consider that and think bigger picture, instead of expecting an immediate ROI or return on ad spend from every campaign? Because it’s much more—especially as an indie artist—of a long-tail game than it is like immediate satisfaction in terms of spending $500 here and expecting 5,000 streams from that $500.

So I think that's one thing that I would say in terms of—I don't know if it's a myth per se—but it's something that I feel like as an industry, if you look at other major direct-to-consumer industries that are growing brands, they're hitting people with digital out-of-home banners, billboards—things that seem unrealistic as an independent artist. But found.ee is a perfect example of tools that can help you expand your reach with some of your paid efforts outside of just the normal platforms that most music artists and teams are accustomed to using.

Michael: Mm-hmm. Got it. That sounds really cool. Programmatic advertising—I’d be curious to hear what that means exactly compared to if someone’s running ads on Meta or YouTube or something. What does it mean to have programmatic advertising?

Taylor: Yeah. And I always speak in terms of not replacing what you're doing on Meta or YouTube—those are obviously super important as well. But it's reaching people where they are based on a few more data points. I forget exactly the year, but a couple years ago something happened with Meta in the sense that they were no longer allowed to essentially have track pixels on third-party sites, right?

Michael: Yeah. iOS 14.

Taylor: Yeah, exactly. So, if you think about the impact that has on Meta ads, that reduces their data in terms of building audiences. So now Meta's building audiences based on the user's interaction across Instagram or Meta, right? So if I like a comment or I like a post that is—I don't know—let's say grandma, grandpa making a reel and it's about gardening, then I'm looped into this kind of gardening audience, right?

Or if I see a hip hop song that I'm like, "Oh, that's cool," and I like it, now all of a sudden I'm considered a fan of that. But there's—so in my mind, there's so many crossovers there. With programmatic, what you're doing is using a much broader resource of data in the sense that it's pulling in audiences from all different touch points because it's using a newer approach with the data that's out there.

And with AI tools and things that are even still above my head when it comes to the tech side of it. But ultimately it's also about reaching people where they are and the content that they're consuming, as opposed to only on a social media platform. And with programmatic, it's kind of bidding in real time and auto-optimizing—as are Instagram ads.

And those things are optimizing based on the data that they have. With programmatic, you're serving across—you can be serving across—multiple devices, device types, multiple placement inventory places, and all of that can be learning in the same time to an extent so that it's a little bit smarter.

Oh, it looks like I froze up there for a second. Sorry. It's a little bit smarter. But yeah, so I mean, programmatic, you know, it's bidding in real time across multiple different ad networks, multiple ad exchanges, to really find that lower cost and reaching people where they are across multiple different touch points. Again, be that display banners while they're reading an article about Americana music—you can reach somebody in that kind of capacity. And it's a little bit different than obviously being on somebody's stories that they're swiping through, or the disruption there is a little bit different. And using that data to be smarter—that's what programmatic really focuses on.

Michael: Hmm. Cool. That's super interesting. So, Taylor, if we were kinda gonna zoom out and look at the future of the music industry and kind of what's around the corner, to hear your perspective on—obviously no one has a crystal ball and things often turn out very different than what we expect—but what’s the quote? Like, “Man plans, and God laughs.”

But I'm curious to hear your perspective. At the time of recording this, there's like some huge waves happening with AI, and tech is advancing really quickly. And there's also many things that are kind of broken with the existing music industry.

So I'm curious to hear your perspective on where you think things are going.

And if an artist is listening to this right now, and they're looking at—if there's these different waves of momentum, and there's a wave cresting—if you swim along with it at the right time, you can catch the wave.

Curious if you see any of those waves emerging and what you think those are?

Taylor: Hmm, that's a tough question to answer. Yeah, I mean, I think for one, there's understandable reasons to be a little concerned or fearful of AI and how it's impacting the creative process, or maybe not impacting the creative process. But I've heard stories of Spotify creating their own music that they're streaming out there.

Michael: Really?

Taylor: Yeah. I read something the other day where the guy was speaking more in terms of atmospheric, ambient music—stuff that I listen to a lot while I'm working, that's just kind of lo-fi vibes.

And with artificial intelligence, if you're an artist that creates that type of music, I could understand a fear that maybe—how are you gonna cut through the noise of some AI?
 But how do you also lean in and utilize some of those tools as a part of your process, whether it's creation or the business side of things?

And so I don't really have a great answer in terms of how to catch the right wave, but I would just say: trying to find ways to stay motivated.

And that's something that I struggle with as a creator myself. And just separating yourself a little bit from all of the noise and chaos out there and reason to be fearful, and just know that you're doing it for the reason of creating and the long game.

Trying to balance the expectation, I think, is important. And in a world where everything is changing so quickly, that feels a little bit more disruptive and harder to do, I feel like these days. But I think that ultimately, we have to remember why we started as a creator and what drew us into playing an instrument or writing a song—or really that process—and trust the process. And know that as new tools come out there, how do you start to leverage some of them without feeling overwhelmed? And I don't know that there's an easy way to do that. If there were, we'd all have scored by now and really be great at it. But yeah, I think that is probably the best advice I could give somebody: just kind of trusting the process and staying true to yourself as much as possible.

Michael: Hmm. I like it. Yeah, it feels like a good answer because it's kind of all we can do, right? It's like, is to show up and keep learning and adapting and being resilient.
 And as I think about that surfer analogy, it's sort of like you come into balance with the fact that—hey, we are surfing. And it's like another wave. And yeah, we can try to catch it, but we can talk about the wave as it's kind of approaching. But at a certain point, you have to try to swim along with it. Maybe you'll catch it, maybe you won't. But the most important thing is the balance of just showing up and trying and kind of seeing what's happening. And that's probably always gonna be true regardless of which surfboard that we're using.

Taylor Winchester: Yeah, and knowing that there's ebbs and flows, and I, as somebody that—we talked prior to kind of starting this—I've gone down a path of getting certified to teach meditation. And I think that is one of the biggest things that I've learned in that process: knowing that in everything you do in life, there's gonna be peaks and valleys. There's gonna be good times, bad times, struggles, and kind of the ecstatic wins of celebrating those wins. But trying to maintain that certain level of consistency throughout all of that is something that I think is important.

And knowing that—the thing that I love about being a creative and writing and releasing music—is that if you ever think about a legacy, and especially if we forget about the whole sense of money and monetization of everything for a moment, the best thing you can do in terms of leaving something behind is that legacy of art and creativity and releasing something that you put together, possibly, obviously with others. But in my mind, that's way more valuable than just leaving behind a certain amount of money, because the money's only gonna get you so much, you know?

Michael: Mm. I like it. Yeah, like leaving a legacy through the art that you create. And I mean certainly that's the case for all of these catalogs, you know, that are passed down generation to generation.

Hmm. Cool. Well, Taylor, it's been fun connecting today and talking a little bit about the current state of the music industry, where things are headed, and how to stay balanced as we're surfing the waves.

And I appreciate you being on the podcast. Would love to hear a little bit more about the tool that you've built. If an artist is watching or listening to this right now and they're interested in learning more, could you share a little bit of a deep dive into what the journey looks like for an artist who comes to your website and signs up? What will it look like as they start using the tool?

Taylor: Yeah, absolutely. So, we have free accounts that you can sign up for. Anybody can go—it's just found.ee—and you'll find us there.

You create an account, and I think the lowest hanging fruit in terms of tools for independent artists are gonna be our pre-save or music release pages.

We have plenty of resources on our blog and Help Center in terms of getting started.

But yeah, if you're going to release an album or release a single, you want to be able to start to build momentum and engagement and tell people. And there are many other tools out there to do it as well. But we kind of look at ourselves as providing a little bit more robust of a toolkit.

So, in addition to the pre-save page, you have trackable short links that can include QR codes. If you are doing a tour, you can obviously have merch out there and a QR code that people scan and go to one of those pages that you create that’s building all of that audience.

Just like you've probably talked in the past about Meta pixels or Google Analytics code—every Found.ee account has that. So you're tracking those engagements and touchpoints along that journey.

Then there are other tools like email capture modals that you can deploy on your website from our tool. And as somebody that loves and uses Mailchimp for certain things, it can be super complicated to get a Mailchimp popup banner onto your website. Ours is super simple and can trigger off of different audience touchpoints.

And then yeah, the advertisement tool as well. If an artist wants to get their release on a banner promoting their release, they could embed a YouTube video into a little HTML5 ad unit and have that ad unit show up on NPR or Rolling Stone or Paste Magazine, and there's no minimum spend to do it.

So that’s the great piece of the advertising side—reaching potential music fans on music websites while they're consuming content around culturally related things.

So, that's a quick high-level overview of it. We welcome anybody to find us online. We usually try to host quarterly webinars—we’ve been a little behind on that—but there's some content on YouTube from past webinars out there as well.

Michael: Alright, fantastic. Like always, we'll put all the links in the show notes for easy access. And Taylor, thanks again for being on the podcast today.

Taylor: Absolutely. Thank you, Michael, for having me.