Michael Walker: I'm excited to be here today with my new friend, Ankit Desai. Ankit, let me give you a quick introduction. He is the Founder and CEO of Snafu Records, revolutionizing indie music with AI-powered royalty advances and artist services. He's a former Universal Music Group strategist with deep expertise in digital innovation in the music industry. He was on Forbes 30 Under 30 and a Nordic Music Export 20 Under 30 honoree, recognized for transforming the future of music tech.

Awesome—30 Under 30. So today I'm excited to have him on the podcast to talk a little bit about the current landscape of music as it relates to being an independent musician. And how do you not get swept away by the tidal wave that is AI and generative AI, but how do you actually use it as a tool to enhance your creativity and cut through the noise as an artist?

And he's going to be sharing some lessons that he's learned from some of their Snafu artists who have gone from zero to 100 million-plus streams. So really excited to have you on the podcast today, and I appreciate you taking the time to hop on.

Ankit Desai: Thank you, Michael. And thank you to the Modern Musician team.

Michael: Absolutely. So, to kick things off, maybe you could just share a little bit about your story and how you got started with Snafu Records.

Ankit: Of course. I have to preface this by saying it was a little bit of right place, right time. I was studying economics and I was on the path to going into banking and finance.

Actually, during my studies is when I met the CEO of Universal Music in the Nordics, Per Sundin. I was a confident kid, so I was like, “You know what, Per? If I was in your position, I would change this and this, and this is probably how I'd do my marketing,” and so on.

That led to a summer gig working for Universal, and I honestly saw it as a last little fun thing to do over a summer before I went out and got a real adult job. But from day one of working in music, I just couldn't imagine myself doing anything else, to be honest.

Like I said in terms of right place, there was this wave of Swedish artists that took over the world around that time—2015—everything from Avicii to Tove Lo, Swedish House Mafia, Laleh. And I was fortunate enough to be part of that wave.

My job was to build algorithms that could identify which songs are likely to work and which aren't. We got pretty good at that, even though our algorithms at that time were very basic. And this was my ticket to Hollywood.

I did the same at Capitol Records based in L.A. with a different set of artists, where I was also working on digital strategy. There, it was more with everything from Katy Perry to Sam Smith, Halsey, Paul McCartney.

But really, while I was working there is when I saw this number that really blew my mind: 70% of all music consumption at that time was between the three major labels—Universal, Sony, and Warner—but they accounted for less than 1% of all the new music that was coming out in the world.

That was really mind-blowing to me because I was like, okay, if I think about it another way, the entire music industry as we know it is not built for 99% of the artists that are out there.

That was kind of where it really planted the seed of, “Can we use tech to help democratize this field, to help level the playing field a little bit?”

Can we build an algorithm that can scan through all the millions of songs that are coming out on Spotify, YouTube every year, and find that girl in her bedroom in Indonesia who’s making amazing music that the world’s dying to hear? But the bridge to connect that artist to the world just doesn’t exist yet.

And so that was the ground idea behind Snafu. Can we scan through all the music that’s out there to really give talented independent artists a platform to succeed?

And so today, we do about a billion streams per year across the Snafu roster, and 20+ Grammy nominations. We represent around 300 artists.

Michael: Hmm.

Ankit: Wow.

Michael: That is very impressive. Cool.

Ankit: You are so good. Thank—

Michael: Thank you. Yeah, yeah. Okay, awesome. So it sounds like what you really focus on is helping artists connect with their fans. And in particular, when you saw that 99% of artists are sort of being cast aside, you saw an opportunity there to help democratize the music industry. Wow. So I am curious—Snafu—could you share a little bit of context around what exactly is the platform, and how do you help artists to connect with their ideal fans?

Ankit: So first of all, Snafu, of course—which I'm sure you know—stands for "Situation Normal, All Fucked Up," right? And that was a little bit what we thought was the status of the music industry at the time when we started, where you just have to be comfortable with chaos. Things are changing all the time, and if you're going to succeed in this new world, you need to be able to adjust and roll with the punches.

And so that was a little bit kind of the philosophy when we started it. In terms of the Snafu platform, I would say we're the world's first AI-enabled artist services and financing company. And essentially what that means is we use our technology and our algorithms to identify undervalued music from all over the world.

And then we've built up an artist services part of the offering that will then help those artists be represented, increase their fanbase, monetize their fanbase in a better way, and generally have a much better foundation to having a long and profitable music career.

Michael: Hmm, wow. And you are the one that created the algorithm that basically determines where there's an underserved market or where there's an opportunity that isn't being leveraged?

Ankit: That's right. I made the first version of the algorithm. Now we have people way smarter than me that are working on that problem, but the first version was built by me as well.

But really, the idea at its core feeds on engagement. Even if you only have like 100, 200, 300 fans, if you're able to find that fit between your music and a fanbase that's really connecting with it, it doesn't matter if you have 200 or 300 fans because someone like us could go in, give you a lot of resources to scale that up in a major way.

So one of the artists, for example—one of the very first artists that we started working with—is these two guys in Little Rock, Arkansas called Joan. And I think when we met them, they only had a few thousand streams, I think 2,000 followers on Instagram. But their engagement was so, so high that we knew that whenever somebody new found their music, they would stream it over and over and over again.

And I think now they're somewhere around 150 million-plus streams. They've toured the entire world. And it just goes to show that a lot of these big breakthroughs can happen at very early stages, where you see the signs of what's working and what isn't.

Michael: Mm-hmm. Wow. That's so cool. So in terms of what I'm hearing you say, one of the biggest ways to determine where there's an opportunity that's being underserved is when you look at an artist that doesn't have a lot of reach, but the depth of connection they have with those fans is astronomical. And then it's a matter of driving more attention and energy there because you know that there's something strong there.

Ankit: Exactly. And I think you really nailed it. Our philosophy has always been, if you look at the traditional music industry, it's so gatekeeper-driven. And people always talk about this X-factor—that an artist needs to have that X-factor in order to break through or get a record deal or whatever.

And I think the way that we try to think about it is, we don’t try to be the arbiter of whether or not this is an artist that's connecting. What we try to do is rely on this gut feeling of thousands of people around the world. If they're finding you and if they're engaging with your music, that must be for a reason.

So who would we be to come in and say, “Okay, that was really great, but we’ll take it from here. We know what’s best for your career moving forward”? So I think that's been a little bit the approach. Exactly like you said—the depth of the connection is so important. And even if you're able to do it for a couple hundred people, that’s giving you the—let’s say—the secret formula for what you need to be able to replicate at scale, right?

Michael: Hmm. Wow. That is so cool. This visual just popped into my head of a tree with roots and the difference between having really deep roots, being really connected, going vertical versus that horizontal part.

Cool. So maybe we can talk a little bit about—for an artist who might be listening or watching this right now—who maybe they're early on and they want to build their audience in the right way, and they care about building those roots. What would you recommend for them in terms of doing it the right way and kind of having that connection from the start? Like, how do you recommend they start building their community?

Ankit: I have a couple of thoughts on that one. The first would probably be—do your research. And I think that probably—one of those legs of the research—I’m sure involves going through Modern Musician’s material as well.

But do your research in terms of what you see working in your genre. Look at all the related artists to your artist profile on Spotify. Look at everybody else that's playing around you—that already has the fans that you want to have in the future. See how they're engaging. See the best practices they're using, how and when they engage with their audience and their community, and so on.

I think that’s number one. It starts with the research to start to build a picture of what are my role models doing, and see if you can take the best aspects of that.

I know a lot of the producers and songwriters that I admire the most in the world, that’s their approach to writing songs. They make a playlist of all the things they’re inspired by, and then they bring their own interpretation to that. And it's a little bit how I would look at building my audience as well.

So that’s number one—do your research.

Number two is look at where your music—or others’ music—is being discovered. And for the most part, I would say today, that tends to be on short-form video. That’s like TikTok, Reels, Shorts, you name it.

And that doesn’t necessarily mean that you need to start doing TikTok dances to start building your community, because many artists will not fit into that mold. But what it does mean is that you need to find a way for your music to fit into the context of where it's generally being discovered.

And that could be anything from—you and I are talking on a podcast right now—it could be taking a podcast clip and putting it up there, all the way to taking high-quality videos of yourself playing live, even if it's for a few people. But you just want to get a way to fit into the zeitgeist of how your music is being discovered, and kind of go with the tide there, not against it.

And I think the third one—probably the very best way to connect with fans, and I'm sure probably also you and me and everybody listening can relate as well—the deepest connection that you make with your audience is when you're playing live, right?

There's just so much more to connect with, and it's just such a stronger connection. So I think if and when you have the opportunity, I say always take the chance to play in front of an audience and hone your craft.

So I would say those are kind of my top three.

Michael: Hmm. Good.

Ankit: Stuff.

Michael: Yeah. So, it sounds like, to start with, you want to learn how to emulate and then innovate. So there's patterns, there's things that work. And so you want to learn from those while also synthesizing them into your own frameworks—things that resonate with you. Exactly. And then building relationships with those fans and primarily focusing on connecting with them. And one of the best ways to connect is through live experiences and live shows.

Ankit: Absolutely. And I would say, I mean live and, of course, through short-form video and social media. And I think there's another part to that social media aspect which I think is very, very underappreciated and underrated to artists. Not only do you have a chance—the distance between you and going viral is shorter than ever—but that's not important in this case. One of the most important and innovative uses that we've seen of TikTok and Reels and so on is actually to test what sort of formats and content work best to get you in front of the audience that you want to get in front of.

Because the great thing with TikTok or Reels or whatever is, unlike Instagram, if you post five times a day or ten times a day or whatever, if the clip is not connecting with an audience, it just won't show it to your fans. So you could fail in silence as many times as you want until you find that thing—that hook or that piece of content that works. And then, for many of our artists, once we found something that worked, we've replicated that over and over for the same artist, and it's worked each time and given us a spike in streams.

So using social channels as a testing bed for your communication strategy with your community is, I feel like, a really important secret weapon.

Michael: Mm. Oh, that's super smart. Yeah. So using that short-form content as a way to also test out, see what's resonating with people. Exactly. And the beautiful part is if it doesn't resonate, then it might feel a little bit embarrassing, but really, it doesn't need to be embarrassing because no one's seeing it in the first place, so there's nothing to be embarrassed about.

Ankit: Exactly.

Michael: Mm. That's good. It reminded me of an analogy of learning how to shoot free throws. Mm-hmm. You know, the only way to get good at learning how to get it in the hoop is to actually take the shot and see what happens. Right? And so with each of those short-form pieces of content you're testing, it's like you're kind of throwing the test. You're like, oh, that one landed, that one didn't. Then when you see it lands, it's like, okay, cool. Now I can aim and I know how to make it in the hoop.

Ankit: Exactly. And that combined with having done your research in the first stage means you're probably not going to have to take that many throws before you find the thing that works.

Michael: Hmm. I like it. Yeah. It's kind of like in that research phase you're establishing, where's the hoop in the first place, instead of having a blindfold on and you're just kind of like—like you actually kind of know what you're aiming for. Yeah. Hmm. Cool. So one thing that I know that you have a lot of expertise in is around building a catalog and understanding the value of that catalog. I'd love to hear you share a little bit more of your perspective around why is building a catalog an important thing to focus on, and how should artists think about valuing their catalog?

Ankit: Absolutely. So as an artist, of course, your first instinct is always to think about the next thing—the next session, the next song, the next album. I mean, that is the soul and spirit of being an artist—is kind of pushing the boundaries continuously, creating art. And I think one of the realizations that we had was within that mindset, one of the consequences ends up being that you end up to some extent neglecting what is actually your biggest asset, which is the catalog of songs that you've already built.

And that's really like a goldmine that you're sitting on. Because putting out a new song—you first have to make sure that song reaches your old audience, and then you, of course, want to expand that audience as well. What you have with your catalog is that it's already in people's playlists, it's already the soundtrack to important moments in a lot of people's lives. So you have that unfair advantage over anybody else that's looking to get that listener's attention with a new song.

And for the first time, it's now become possible to elevate your catalog and remind people about it. Because, let's say, 15 years ago, if you wanted to revive your catalog, you needed your label to do a big TV campaign, like a 20th anniversary deluxe issue or whatever. Five years ago, you needed to be on a 2000s nostalgia playlist from Spotify in order to be resurfaced.

But today, because a lot of the music discovery ends up being algorithmic or ends up being on social short-form video, as long as your song—even if it's 10 years old—fits into the context of the video that someone's creating, it has all the potential in the world. So on one hand, all of a sudden your music is now competing with all the best songs that were ever released in a way that hadn't happened before. Like you're competing with ABBA, you're competing with the Bee Gees, etc. But on the other hand, you now have an opportunity to monetize your biggest asset in a way that really was not possible before.

And I think that's the one big takeaway that we took, and I'd like to convey forward. A lot of the time, artists just end up not paying as much attention to their biggest asset, which is their catalog, that they can continually be nourishing and refining.

Michael: That makes a lot of sense. The analogy that kind of came back again was the roots and the tree. Yeah. And it sounds like what you're saying is that with the catalog, it's like you've planted the seed already and it's already started to germinate. It's already started to blossom. And it's a lot easier to bear fruit from an existing blossoming tree than it is to plant an entirely new seed.

And it's great to plant new seeds and to nurture and let it grow, but often we underutilize it because we think, oh, the tree's already there—I want to plant the new shiny thing, rather than focusing on the asset that's already there.

Ankit: You're absolutely right. And, of course, I understand also for independent musicians, a lot of the time one of the big challenges is that you're resource constrained. Right? And you only have so much time, and you are a musician, not a music marketer most of the time. And that's why the instinct often tends to be, "Let me put out a new song and see if something goes differently this time."

And I think that was one of the big catalysts for us trying to put our roots down in this part of the industry, which is—you focus on what you do best, and we'll build up and share the expertise in terms of how to help you monetize this asset.

Michael: Mm-hmm. Awesome. So that might lead nicely into the next question, which would be around: how can artists bear the fruit from the roots that they've planted if they have a community and maybe their streaming isn't paying a whole lot or enough to pay the bills that they have or the ability to invest more in their music?

And so I'm curious—what have you found that's working right now for artists to be able to make a sustainable income with their music and make the most out of those seeds that they've planted?

Ankit: I would say one of the biggest barriers, like we've said, is that it tends to be resource constrained. Like we said, 99% of the artists in the world are generally not having music as their full-time job, and many of them would. And I think that's kind of where the resource and financing aspect comes into the picture. It's easier than ever to put out a song today, but it's harder than ever to cut through the noise.

Right. And the more songs that come out in the world, the harder it becomes and the more resources you need to rise to the top. And I think that's why—and of course, I'm biased on this—that was a solution that we tried to come with, which is... Which is that you can get an advance on your future royalties. So maybe it's not enough money to pay the bills this year, but you could decide to take a real shot at a full-time music career. Or even devote more time to your music career by taking an advance on two, three years of your future royalties.

That allows you to go on tour, to quit your job and focus full-time on music, do a down payment on a house, etc., etc., where then you're starting to actually use your catalog as that asset in order to get to the next stage of your artist career. And of course, we're one of the—I would say—we're a good player in this industry, but there are others as well.

I think that offer interesting artist services that allow artists to retain their masters while unlocking financing and resources to take their music to the next stage.
 Beep Bread is one. In the U.S., there's one called Amuse as well. So there are a few others out there. And I think it's only good for the industry that we move toward this paradigm of artist ownership, but also artist education in terms of not just "How can I create really great music?" but "How can I be a really good creative entrepreneur that makes my music also come out into the world in a good way?"

Michael: Hmm. Hmm. That's super smart. Yeah. What came to mind there—I don't know if everything is just a nail, I just feel like the same hammer I... idiot. But please do—The analogy with the roots is just... it serves so well. So it sounds like what you're saying is one of the biggest challenges is just being resource constrained.

It's like many artists don't have the fertilizer. The fertilizer to put on the roots in the first place. And—oh, that's such a great analogy.

Ankit: Actually, you're so right. I mean, maybe we should rename ourselves to like Tree Records or something, because you're completely right. Roots, roots.

Michael: I'm sure it's been done. Roots Records. That's so good. I'm sure it's been done.

Ankit: Fertilizer Records doesn’t have the same ring to it.

Michael: So I also—I mean—I really appreciate just kind of sharing this mindset around... really, it's all about investment. It's about investment. That fertilizer is sort of investment.

And in order to invest, one of the options is to be able to pull from future earnings, which is really the bedrock of capitalism.

And having investments and debt is a shared belief and vision that the future’s going to be better than today.

And it turns out that’s been the case. And so, that's a really cool model that you've built to help artists who need access to the fertilizer today be able to have access to that, so they can invest into their music and growing it.

And then they might have a portion of the fruit that are falling down that go back toward covering the fertilizer cost.

Ankit: Exactly. And I mean, to continue the analogy as well—artists have used this fertilizer, this rocket fuel, whatever you want to call it—to do everything from go on tour. There’s one artist who actually made a great decision, where he took a large part of the advance that we offered him and he invested it into more advertising for his catalog. So within a year, first of all, he was recouped. But also, after being recouped, the value of his catalog increased by like twofold.

And we thought it was a very interesting and innovative way because, unlike a loan, an advance that you get on your royalty is not—if it doesn’t recoup in time, it’s not that anyone's going to come after you to claim the money.

You just have to mortgage your rights for a slightly longer period.

So he essentially de-risked himself to reinvest into his career with that advance. And that worked out. And now his catalog is worth twice as much without having risked any of the money himself.

So that was one of the more interesting and inspiring uses of this fertilizer, in this case.

Michael: Hmm. Wow. That is just so awesome. I'm really looking forward to connecting more after this conversation too and just talking about integrations. We're primarily helping artists to be able to invest into their music with advertising and funnels and systems, and to get a profitable campaign set up. So I'm like, woo, man. For so many of them, the biggest challenge is not the music. They have great music, but they need the fertilizer.

Ankit: Exactly. And I know that you guys have done very interesting partnerships before, so super looking forward to it as well.

Michael: Hmm. Awesome. So I'm curious—when someone comes to you, you probably have a pretty good spidey sense for this at this point—when there's someone who has that untapped potential, where you're like, whew, this is someone who's really going to have rocket fuel, like we're going to knock it out of the park. So I'm curious—if someone's listening or watching this right now and they're wondering, "I wonder if I'm a good fit, or if that might be me..."

Who do you look for, and how can they get in touch if they think they're a good fit?

Ankit: Absolutely. I would say one of the biggest indicators we've seen for artists that end up kind of going all the way is how prolific they are in terms of their creation. So that's everything from how prolific they are in putting out content, making songs—also just in terms of how they communicate with their audience.

At the very extreme of this is Ed Sheeran. And I think his schedule and his way of working with not just fans but activations and promoting his albums is well-documented and very inspirational and well-known. But I think also at a much earlier stage, these are artists that are either touring a lot, or if they're not at the size of touring yet, they're putting out a lot of content. They're writing very prolifically.

What that does and what that gives you in this modern music industry is feedback upon which you can iterate. If you put out 50 pieces of content—even if all of them don't go anywhere and only get a few hundred views—I promise you're going to get some sort of feedback in terms of what's working and what's not working, and what you should do for the 51st piece of content.

And the same goes with songs, right? The Swedish pop songwriting phenomenon is, of course, well-known and documented, but they always say you have to write a hundred songs before you write your first good song. I really think that putting the time and effort into just that grinding time is what we've seen separates the artists that end up taking their career to the next level and those that maybe stay on the hobby level.

And I think, of course, we obviously welcome all, and I know you guys do too as well. So if there are artists listening to this and want to get in touch, I think the easiest is either reach out to us at @snafurecords on Instagram, or contact@snafurecords.com. We check that pretty regularly and would love to talk more.

Michael: Hmm.

Ankit: Awesome.

Michael: Okay, so one last question for you. I was even debating trying to ask this one because this could be a rabbit hole kind of thing, but I would love to hear your perspective on it.

Right now it feels like we're on a little bit of a precipice, or we're leaning over the edge of massive change—massive revolution in the music industry and in the world—due to technology, AI, and an approaching singularity-level event. I'm curious, from your perspective, having some pretty deep insights into what's working right now in the market: where are things headed? What are some of the waves that are approaching? What do you think the next one to five years is going to be about in the music industry?

Ankit: Oh, I have a few thoughts on that one. The next five years—what we are discussing. First of all, I think it's undeniable that AI in some shape or form is going to be a driving force in the industry over the next five years and beyond.

Then the question is, how do we look at AI? How do we think about AI? The way we think about AI is: we look at it as an instrument. I don't think there will be a mass market for completely AI-generated music that happens at the press of a button. I think that's going to be much more niche. There will be elevator music and background music for boring coworking spaces—that's going to be that.

But if you look at the evolution of how music’s been created in the last, let's say, 30–40 years: when synthesizers came onto the market, people thought that was cheating because it's not a real instrument. Drum machines—that was the same thing. But with each evolution, it's unlocked a new kind of artist.

I had the privilege of working and spending some time with Avicii before he passed. One of the biggest things was that he was not the best instrument player in the world, but he was an incredible musical genius. He would write all his songs by dragging one note up, one note down, one note up in Logic Pro. It drove all the other songwriters crazy, but he would really take his time. When it was ready, it sounded incredible.

So I like to think that this evolution in technology gave us a genius like Avicii. If it was only through normal instruments, he would not have been able to get his art out into the world. That's where I think AI or AI-assisted music creation is going to reduce the barrier even further to get what's in your mind out into the world.

That, I think, is hopefully going to unleash a lot more creators who are able to be a lot more prolific and hopefully make money and make a living off their art. Probably a lot of the future musicians don't even know they're going to be musicians yet.

And I would say, lastly, what this enables is maybe the question of: is the streaming model still the right business model for the music industry? The streaming model was built for an industry that existed 20 years ago. Now, if you can generate new songs at the press of a button—or you yourself could release a hundred new songs a day—we think that the game is going to become not just how you get more fans, but how you can upsell your fans to make more from fewer listeners.

Because at some point, the number of new creators coming into the music industry is going to be more than the number of new listeners coming in. So the pay-per-stream is going to reduce, we think. And that, of course, means that we as an industry need to find better ways to compensate our creators.

Michael: Mm-hmm. So well-articulated. What a time to be alive. I mean, in all of the different slices that we could have been here, this certainly is pretty magnificent indeed.

Well, Ankit, it's been a really fun conversation. I appreciate you hopping on the podcast today. Like always, we'll put all the links in the show notes for easy access. Thanks again for being on the podcast today.

Ankit: Likewise, Michael. So grateful and looking forward to talking more.

Michael: Yeah.