Michael Walker: Yeah. All right. I'm excited to be here today with my new friend, Dmitri Vietze. So, Dmitri, let me do a quick introduction for you. Dmitri founded Rock Paper Scissors in 1999. Oh, I love that game. Can't believe you invented rock, paper, scissors.

Dmitri Vietze: Yep, that was me.

Michael: So Rock Paper Scissors helped fuse cutting-edge tech and storytelling into powerful PR and marketing strategies for innovators. He pioneered the do-it-yourself music tech PR with StoryAmp, and he continues to lead the conversations through their Music Tectonics podcast, events, and conference. So, I'm excited to have him on the podcast today to talk a little bit about the landscape of the music industry as it relates to tech and some of the shifts that are happening. It feels like more and more rapidly, as we have the rise of AI and emerging superintelligence. So looking forward to hearing your perspective as someone that has perspective and experience with all these innovators and people around the music industry focused on different things—so that artists who are watching this might get a little bit of a sneak peek of things around the corner.

So, Dmitri, thank you for taking time to be on the podcast today.

Dmitri: Hey Michael, thanks for having me. Excited to have this conversation.

Michael: Absolutely. So, just to kick things off, for anyone that this is their first time connecting with you, could you share a little bit about yourself and how you started the company and founded the Rock Paper Scissors game that became a household classic?

Dmitri: Well, we didn't actually found the game, but I started Rock Paper Scissors in 1999 as a PR firm that specialized in music from around the world. I was breaking artists and record labels and even festivals in the U.S. that had this kind of global flavor. And then as I saw things shifting in the larger landscape around technology, I started thinking: how is this going to disrupt PR?

And so I actually started StoryAmp, which you mentioned, which is an automated PR platform where artists can get their tour dates and their releases sent out to press automatically—two, four, and six weeks before each release date or tour date and so forth. The company—the StoryAmp startup—didn't blow up into the Uber of music or the Airbnb of music, as we all dreamed about when we started our startups. But I ended up getting really engrossed in the music industry in different ways. Other music tech companies started asking us if we could get the kind of press that we had gotten for our own startup. And so I started working with different companies, starting with CD Baby, eventually Rumblefish, and then every year it doubled. And so I started doing more and more PR—basically press strategy for music technology and innovative companies.

The funny thing is it didn't start that way. I never thought I was going to be a publicist, Michael. I was a kid in New York City. I actually was born in Nashville, Tennessee, and then at age 13 moved to New York. And as a teenager, the whole city opened up to me, and I started playing music in the streets. I was very involved with activism. I started demonstrating in the streets, and I just got really sucked into these vibrant cultures and activity and energy of New York.

So it was kind of like not what I expected—to end up doing PR and music—but I was playing music too, so I was into it. And eventually, I started doing these workshops using music to teach about different cultures around the world—about the idea that you can learn from other people in the world rather than always seeing it as a challenge. I was really focused on anti-racism work, and I wanted people to work on and think about what the opportunities were rather than the obstacles. So I used music to do that.

Then I started doing storytelling for artists in PR with that same cultural lens. Like, the band Tinariwen from the Sahara Desert in Africa traded in Kalashnikov rifles and rebellion for electric guitars. And they were very inspired by the music of rock and roll. And so, all of a sudden, these trance rhythms and so forth were getting translated into electric guitarists, basically. So it was a super, super cool thing.

Eventually, when we got into music tech and the innovation side, we just wanted to tell stories in the same kind of exciting way—sort of like, what are those societal shifts, those groundbreaking things that are transforming how music is made, how music is distributed, how artists make a living, how fans and listeners are experiencing music, and all that kind of stuff?

Michael: Hmm, cool man. Trading electric guitars for guns—how much better would the world be if that was just like a trade we could make worldwide?

Dmitri: Absolutely. I mean, it's the power of music, right? And I think that's what stuck with me in this side of music technology—some of the same things we did with this global music—introducing people across cultures through music—was introducing the ideas of access and transparency, how to make a living, a livelihood, all that kind of stuff.

There’s so many important things that are happening with shifts in music that I think are super relevant to anyone that wants to create music, whether they're going to do it as a career or just because it inspires them, it keeps them going. And I mean, that's always the trickiest part, right? Like, you want to be in music—is it going to be a hobby? Is it going to be a living? Is it going to be the thing that puts food on the table, or is it going to be just something you have to do no matter what else happens? Are you going to attract a group of people who love what you're doing and inspire you?

And then, we're oftentimes talking about like, well, what are the workflow processes? What are the technology and tools that help you get there to empower artists and things like that?

Michael: Hmm. Cool. Yeah, I mean, that's like my world too. I love everything that you're talking about right now.

Dmitri: Nice.

Michael: It's like helping artists to build a sustainable career and connect with their communities. And so I would love to hear your experience—from like, what do you see that's working right now? What separates artists who are struggling to connect with their fans and struggling to build a sustainable career, from the artists you see that have built an audience and have a sustainable career? What are some of the key factors and the things that an indie artist listening right now really should be hyper-focused on?

Dmitri: Well, I think that, like I was saying, you have to decide whether this is a hobby or a living. And I think we're always looking through the lens of: can we make this a living? Can any artist make a living out of this? There are so many great tools for making music and distributing music and so forth, and people now have direct access to fans as well. So, it feels like everybody should be able to make a sustainable career out of music, but the truth is that's not going to happen. And that's the hardest thing to say or to hear when you're talking about music.

The biggest challenge for artists today is making great music and building an audience. You mentioned, how do you build an audience? But I think we've got to rewind. We've got to stay focused on: just because you know how to play your instrument, just because you've written a song or you've done one great social media video that maybe even went viral, it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to build an audience that's going to last and sustain you.

So I think it goes back to: have you truly figured out how to make the best music that you can make and do it on a consistent basis? That includes performance and technical things, playing the instruments or producing and things like that, but it also includes writing. Whose songs are you going to sing, or whose songs are you going to play?

So I just don't want to understate the importance of making great music, because I think everyone wants to jump to—you see this and you see that somebody succeeded with an Amazon business and somebody else succeeded with a podcast—we can succeed as an artist. But not everybody's going to succeed. And that's not meant to say lower your standards. It's just meant to say you've got to pay attention to what your ultimate product is, which is great music.

Now, after that, you ask the question: well, how do I feed myself? Am I going to be a full-time artist? Is this going to be what I do to build a big enough audience and support myself financially or my family financially? And if the answer is yes, then we can start to answer some questions, right?

You have to decide where you're going to spend your time and what activities get you closer to finding fulfillment as a musician or making music or driving your livelihood. And so ultimately, I guess I would say the biggest probably challenge—and the biggest opportunity—for artists, to answer your question about how do you do this, is your appetite for risk and time management.

Are you willing to put it all on the line for this right now? And once you are, how are you going to do all the things that you have to do? Because there are so many that you can't do them all. You have to pick and choose. And then once you pick and choose, you have to figure out what's going to drive the most value for you.

So I know that's kind of a broader and more philosophical answer to what you're asking, but that's my answer.

Michael: It's a great answer. Yeah. I mean, it's very much so in line with—I just hopped off a conversation with one of the heads at Bandcamp, and they said the exact same thing, where it's like, ultimately, you have to start with the product. You have to start with the music. And that's the thing that often is easy to overlook—flashy promo or marketing tactics or strategies—when it kind of comes down to the root of your product and the music touching people, the connections that you're making, and building an authentic relationship with those fans.

What I'm hearing you say is basically a very similar thing in terms of understanding the value of the product and the music, the songs that you're writing, and connecting with the fans. And also, one thing I appreciate about what you just said is the fact that there's not enough time to do everything. It's like a newsfeed where you can keep scrolling limitlessly. You're never going to be able to do everything. So prioritization and learning how to focus on the things that actually move the needle is really important.

Knowing that, I'm curious—if you have a few examples of things right now for artists, maybe like three or a few of the most important things—that if they have a limited amount of time and energy, but they've decided, “I am going to go all in on this, I'm going to give this a year to give it a shot,” where do they even get started in terms of building an audience and starting to monetize their music?

Dmitri: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the most important things is to realize there's no single formula for success. So whatever I say right now will apply more to some artists than others, or some bands than others, or some songwriters than others.

And I think it's important to start to realize that there isn't a single path. I think everyone's looking for the perfect solution, right? And the one way to succeed. And I think ultimately, the best solution is to start testing out what revenue streams are the best fit for your musical scene or for what you bring to the table. So songwriters, producers, live performers—they all have different paths, and to be aware of that.

Acoustic artists, electronic dance music producers, horn players, DJs—they all have different ideal revenue pathways. So the first step is to really understand: how do you fit into the larger ecosystem, and how's that going to work?

It also is kind of an alignment between your own personal talents and skills too. Like, if you're not a video-savvy person and you're never going to be—you could take a class and you'd be great, or maybe you could take a class and you'd still suck at it—social media is probably not going to be your primary method. It's just going to be really, really tough. And so you have to kind of—or find a team member. Figure out how would you outsource something like that?

But again, a live performer—touring is one of the best ways to make money, right? But you have to have an audience first. My thing—let’s just take some of the pathways. We won’t talk about all of them, Michael—but if you are a live performer, if that's what you really do well, here's a potential pathway for testing revenue streams.

Start by playing locally, obviously. Once you start traveling, it gets really expensive. Convincing people outside of your local market to book you is highly risky. It’s hard to do, etc. Play locally. Build up a regular gig. It could be a monthly or a weekly gig where you start to test out how people are responding to stuff. Then talk to your fans—well, I shouldn’t say fans, at that point you might not have fans. Talk to the people who happen to show up to your show and figure out if they’re fans. Figure out what they liked and optimize for it.

I've got a 16-year-old kid who's in a band, and the singer of the band always has the mic way down low and has the guitar fuzz way up high. I'm like, she has a beautiful voice. We need to optimize this voice. Get that kind of feedback from your fans. You almost want to imagine what it's like to stand in front of the stage and listen to what your show sounds like through the ears of a listener—and optimize for that.

Once you get a regular show going locally, maybe you turn it into a residency. Maybe you figure out how to partner with a local venue that's just getting started and you're going to help them build audience. You're going to do the marketing for their venue while you're doing the marketing for your music and for your shows. Get other people to play on the show, so you're bringing other people's audiences in with it. Think of it like a residency.

Then think in terms of larger concentric circles. Start doing a monthly gig in the next town over. Do the same thing you did locally, but start to make yourself a part of that community. Then do it again with another community an hour away the other direction, or two hours away the other direction. Make it easy on yourself to actually be able to get to these gigs without having to pay for hotels or booking or all that kind of stuff.

Then think in concentric circles. Once you build out an audience in those local markets, you can start to tell a story to managers and booking agents and things like that. But that's just one path.

If you're not a live performer, if you're a songwriter but you're not a live performer, you have to go down another path. Maybe start looking at what it means to do synchronization licenses. Write music specifically for particular types of shows or movies or outlets or opportunities there. So you would follow a different path.

But really what you're doing ultimately over time is testing out what it takes to build an audience or testing out what it takes to build a revenue stream. Is that too general, Michael, or is that helpful?

Michael: I think that's super helpful. And I appreciate the honesty around—like, you know, we all—it would be great if there's a magic wand and it was just like, yeah, this is the thing that works for everyone every single time. But also, it'd be kind of boring too, if we were all just the same. We are the same human robot.

Dmitri: They do try. They do think, “Oh, I saw this pathway,” or “I perceived it as this pathway,” and they try to follow it. But it doesn't always work for everybody.

And I think, in an ideal world, artists should be able to learn and lean into both their strengths and their interests, and unlock opportunities that show up, and figure out the path from there. It should feel like it comes—it should feel like this makes sense. Right? I like playing on the street. That's what I'm going to do. And then see where it goes from there. Or, I like doing video creation. Or I like doing educational content. Or I like performing at private gigs. That's another opportunity for performers.

There's a company we work with called GigSalad, which basically matches any type of performer with any type of event creator. So it's not a traditional “book your gigs at a venue or get a tour.” It's more like, “Hey, I play a kind of music that works great for birthday parties or weddings or for private events, corporate events,” whatever. It's a great—

Michael: Cool. You guys got him on our podcast?

Dmitri: Oh yeah. Mark Steiner.

Michael: Probably like a couple years ago. It’s been a hot minute, but it was very cool.

Dmitri: Yeah, they’re still alive and kicking. And it's a great way for an independent artist to not have to worry about getting a booking agent, but get their 10,000 hours of performing for an audience.

You can start to build legit national fan bases by playing local events or very small private events as well. Those people—you change their life. They’re like, “That was my mom's birthday, and you gave her the best performance that we've ever seen.” So there's a lot of tools like that.

And that’s kind of the core of what we do at Rock Paper Scissors. And then I also run this conference, Music Tectonics, in Santa Monica, where we bring together 700 music tech innovators to have these conversations about the business. We also have a Creator Fair, so we bring in musical instrument companies—sometimes new musical instruments. People get to play them for the first time on the beach in Santa Monica.

What we do is surface really cool companies solving these kinds of problems for artists, for record labels, for publishers, and the music industry as a whole.

So, I mean, I could go into more if you want more specifics.

Michael: Ha, that's awesome. I mean, I love the conference that you just described. I mean, like, as soon as you said, I'm like, oh my gosh. Like, I want to be there, like connecting, connecting with people. So just to get, yeah, hyperfocused on what you just shared, it sounds like just one general tip that is important for everyone to take into account is that it's okay to reference and kind of like know what other people are doing. Like, oh, this is a path that this person has taken or this is that they've taken—to know what those are, to reference and have examples. But ultimately, you have to appreciate the fact that we're all unique, and we all have unique strengths and weaknesses, and not what works for one person isn't necessarily going to work for you. And so you have to have, like, an experimenter's mindset. You have to be willing to try and see where things land. Awesome. I would love to hear more about the conference you were just talking about and maybe a few examples of some of the types of companies that you're working with, that you're most excited about right now, that might be shaping the music industry in ways that the audience also would be like, whoa, that's a cool idea.

Dmitri: Cool. Yeah, I think we can talk through some pathways, kind of like what I was talking about. And then I'll wrap up by telling you a little bit more about the conference as well, 'cause that's another one of the pathways that, like you, Michael, would—I think you would love it. But I'll get to that. So for artists who are in practice mode, let's say you're not ready to put out any music big time. I mean, you're still pursuing your career. There's a great app that we've worked with called Moises. And basically what Moises does—it was named as the Apple iPad App of the Year last year—and you can do it on your tablet or on your phone. But it basically allows you to isolate and mute instruments and vocals so you can practice songs. You can even play them at any speed but still keep the right key, or you can change the key. It detects chords. It can transcribe lyrics. It can automatically transpose chords for you as well. So it's a really helpful tool. If you're like, how do you play this song? You can pull out just the drum stem so that you can listen to it and replicate it. Or you can flip it and make it so there's no drums at all, so that you're playing with the band as well. It's a really cool app. It's got millions of users. They just launched a real-time version as well, which allows you to have control over—like we're doing a video call right now for this—we can actually control the stems in our conversation in real time. That's how good the AI has gotten. So Moises is one that's pretty cool.

Michael: Yeah. I mean, just real quick, plus one to Moises. I first heard about Moises when one of our clients, First to Eleven, who—they've gotten like 650 million views on their YouTube channel and they specialize in cover songs—and they love Moises. And he showed me his workflow with Moises and I was blown. My mind was absolutely blown. So I just want to give a plus one to Moises. A tool for everyone to check out. It's cool that you work with them.

Dmitri: Yeah, artists love them. I mean, even by the time they got to us, they already had a lot of users, and it's just grown from there. Now, for artists who are still building their tech stack for music creation, if you're like, I've heard of a DAW—a digital audio workstation—but I don't really want to have to learn one, we also worked with a great company that I think a lot of newcomers to music production would like, which is called BandLab. It's basically a DAW in your pocket. It's a way to produce music on your phone. So for the first time ever, artists are creating fully releasable songs just with their phone. They might be in their closet or in their car, whatever, to get it started—which I know doesn't sound like super pro, but that's how good these apps have gotten. It's got pitch correction. It's got a beats marketplace. If you're a rapper or an R&B singer and you want to put some beats down, you can also distribute your music once it's done. It's all wrapped up into this social app that allows you to share your music, discover music, and also collaborate too. You can actually collaborate on individual sessions and bring other people into a session in real time. They have automation tools for mixing and effects, and you can even map MIDI devices. So if you haven't produced music yet and you're like, I don't even know how to get started, this is as easy as Instagram. You're already messing around on social media—why not produce a song on your phone too?

Michael: Super cool.

Dmitri: Yeah, that one's cool. And then for artists who have songs and they're ready to release, there's different distribution options out there. I don't know if—probably most of your audience knows that you can't just distribute your music directly onto Spotify and Apple Music. You work with a distributor. There's a great one out of Sweden called Amuse, and artists can distribute their music for just $20 a year. And then, as you get better and you can show you've got a lot of analytics, you can review and see how you're doing and optimize. But as you can show those analytics, you can even get advanced funding directly from the distributor. So without having to do a record deal where you're signing everything away, you're still getting advances so that you can pay for whatever—that new microphone or some new instruments, or maybe you're paying your mortgage or your rent while you're producing your next release or something like that. And they have all sorts of tools for helping with strategic guidance too. But all with maintaining your own ownership of your masters, and you still have full creative control. So that's a good one too. I got a couple more if you have time.

Michael: Yeah, we do. I mean, all three of those are slam dunks, so I'd love to hear a couple more.

Dmitri: Okay. I told you about GigSalad, so we don't have to go into that again. But if you're a performing artist, check that one out as a way to get bookings without having to rely on an agent. That's super cool. But let's kind of wind down. Maybe you're further along. Maybe you're more like a composer or aiming to be like a film sound designer. Spitfire is a great VST—virtual instrument—company. They just partnered with the guy who did the soundtrack for The Last of Us, Gustavo Santaolalla. They did this great—he plays this 10-string Andean instrument, it's like a guitar, that's called the Ronroco. And he basically released a VST. So now you can sound exactly like him. Obviously, you don't write the same songs, but in terms of the style of the instrument and so forth. So it's really cool if you're into Latin rock or these Hollywood epic films or even these video game franchises. You can start to sound like that. So, you know, there's lots of great VST and plugin—

Michael: Is that the main string instrument in The Last of Us theme song?

Dmitri: You got it.

Michael: Ah, cool. Ah, man, I love listening to that theme song in the intro. I mean, I played the game—one of the best games of all time. Watched the show. I won't spoil anything, but very emotionally charged moment in the most recent season that just happened. But very cool. Yeah, and I didn't realize—I thought that was like a guitar, but it's called—what did you say was the name of it again?

Dmitri: It's the Ronroco. It's got 10 strings, I think. I assume it's like— the reason it gets that resonance is because they're pairs of strings, five pairs of strings, which is pretty cool.

Michael: Hmm, cool.

Dmitri: All right, I got one more for you. And this is on the marketing front. If you've already got everything out there and you're at that point where you're really optimizing on revenue and audience building, there's a platform called SymphonyOS. And it's a platform for automated advertising to increase how many listens you get, your social engagement, and it gives you more insights about who your fans are. It helps you with pre-saves and touring to really see where people are and to optimize to target them. It's a lot of automation. It's crazy to think about—if you're an independent artist, spending all this time figuring out the Meta and the TikTok and the Google platforms for ads. But it is really one of the primary methods for people to drive that online digital engagement. This is a company that worked with BigXthaPlug on his recent breakout to do a pre-save campaign, which ended up getting him number four on Billboard's Hot 100. So this is something that independent artists can use, but also as you scale, as you're further along—record labels love to use SymphonyOS, management companies as well. That's a little more technical, but not on the creation side—more on the optimization. Really, we've come full circle to your original question—how do you build audience? There's a lot that could be done there.

Michael: Whoa, whoa. I got my dog barking. Do you hear that?

Dmitri: I do.

Michael: That's okay though.

Dmitri: Yeah. Hey puppy. Give me one second. Sorry. We have a delivery guy here and my dog always barks.

Michael: All good. It gave me a chance to jam along a little bit with Sting.

Dmitri: Nice.

Michael: So I need to get that VST and then I could play the guitar.

Dmitri: Oh gosh. What? Sorry, what was it called again? I gotta look it up every time. Ronroco. Ron... Ronroco. Yeah. Roko. So cool. Yeah, super cool. Yeah, so anyway, those are some tools, Michael. Those are some tools that folks might want to use. I tried to follow different pathways depending on where artists are. There's so much innovation happening. I think it can be overwhelming. But again, I think if people choose their specific kind of pathway that makes sense for them—where they are in their career, what their strengths are, where they're trying to grow, etc.—those are opportunities.

And I guess the last thing, I mean, you mentioned at the beginning for companies into the music innovation side of things—that you're like doing business in music, you've got a startup or a record label or managing artists, or even creators—because we actually have a Creator Fair now. If you want to try out the newest musical instruments, gear, software, come to the Music Tectonics Conference.

This is my plug, Michael. I hope it's okay. November 4th to 6th. We hold it this year—over 700 people—on the beach in Santa Monica. All of our venues—we have three different venues, each day is a different venue—they're beachside venues. Some are indoor, some are outdoor. It's a great place to do business, to be focused on these types of conversations about what tools are transforming the music industry.

Again, a lot of B2B stuff there, but now that we've got the Creator Fair, there are things for artists to do and social video creators as well—to try out new instruments and just make connections with a lot of the companies. Some of the types of tools, a lot of the companies I mentioned will be there. Some of them will be sponsoring and doing booths or experiences—things like that too. So those are my recommendations.

Michael: Hmm. That's...

Dmitri: Awesome.

Michael: That sounds great. Could you recap again the dates for the event this year?

Dmitri: Absolutely. Yeah. If you go to musictectonics.com, you can see it, but this year we're a little later—we're November 4th to 6th, 2025. Again, it's in Santa Monica.

So our first day is a Creator Fair and a Startup Demo Roundtable that takes place at a carousel on the Santa Monica Pier. We rent out the whole carousel. We've got the deck right outside, so that one literally is right out on the beach or over the water, basically. That's the first day.

The second day, we go to a nearby venue that has a pool—literally, like, our exhibitors are around a pool—and all the event spaces are either outside or they have windows out to the ocean as well. That's where all our panels and keynotes and some of our parties are.

And then the third day, we take over a roofside venue called Expert Dojo, where we do like a startup kind of bootcamp—for startups to kind of meet investors, hear from record labels, and things like that as well.

Michael: Wow, that's so cool. I love that event. I would love to attend one of the events. These days, I've got the three kids that are six, four, and two, and my wife—I have to run everything by—but this sounds like the exact kind of thing that would be a good reason to travel to the West Coast.

Dmitri: I mean, if you can tie it to a family vacation, there's literally a fair right outside our first day venue. There's a Ferris wheel, there's the carousel. Lots of fun stuff to do right there. And the beach is beautiful.

Michael: Okay. Ooh, you just sold me on it. It sounds pretty awesome.

Cool. Dmitri, this has been a lot of fun. Thank you for coming on the podcast and sharing some wisdom around some of the foundational pieces for artists who are looking to build a career in today's industry—as well as some of the fun movements and trends that are kind of happening across the landscape. So I really appreciate you taking the time to come on here and share that.

And also thank you for the work that you're doing on behalf of the full music industry and bringing together these innovators to come together and create the future together. I think it's awesome. And like always, we'll put all the links in the show notes for easy access. And thank you again for being on the podcast today.

Dmitri: Thanks, Michael. This was fun. Talk to you soon.