Michael Walker: Yeah. All right, I'm excited to be here today. My new friend, Rick Farman. Rick is the co-founder of Superfly, which is a company that is behind renowned festivals like Bonnaroo and Outside Land. They're known for their unique blend of music, art, and community engagement, and he's really been a pioneer in experiential marketing and creating immersive experiences across a variety of different domains. I'm really excited to connect with him today. He's connected with Ari Welkom on our team, and he is an incredible mind for creating experiences. And this is something that we found for our artists, especially indie artists—one of the most lucrative opportunities they have and the best ways to connect with their fans is by creating these experiences. So, I'm excited to have him on the podcast to talk a little bit about his background. And Rick, I know you're a busy guy, so I really appreciate you taking the time to be on the podcast today.

Rick Farman: Oh, really glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Michael: Absolutely. So, maybe to kick things off, for anyone who this is their first time connecting with you, could you share just a little bit of background in terms of how you founded the company and started to collaborate with festivals like Bonnaroo?

Rick: Yeah. So, we've, at Superfly, been creating experiences for almost 30 years. It started with four of us who were college students essentially, wanting to bring different artists to New Orleans. We were based in New Orleans, and at the very beginning it was really around creating these event experiences around Mardi Gras and Jazz Fest time. There was some of the music that we were really digging at the time which was just not coming to that town, and those were big moments where people from all over the country were congregating there. And so we kind of just saw this opportunity to create event experiences that catered towards these bands and the audiences that loved them.

And so that was sort of the initial thing that we did at the beginning. It was kind of just a part-time thing where we're in college doing these Mardi Gras Jazz Fest events. From there, as we graduated, we started to kind of become a regular concert promoter, but the thing that really lit us up was when we could create something that sort of went beyond that, that was sort of a special event of sorts.

At the beginning it was just these Mardi Gras Jazz Fest things, but then it grew to sort of other types of special event activities. And in particular, the concert series that we would do during Jazz Fest—kind of after the proper New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Festival that happens at the fairgrounds in New Orleans. We started to program all of these nighttime shows, and at its peak we were selling 30,000–40,000 tickets using lots of different types of venues from clubs and theaters, but even unique venues like riverboats, and there was an old Masonic temple that we would use there and sort of random venues—anything we could kind of get our hands on.

We started to sort of see that there was an audience that was coming for the types of things that we were programming specifically, and there was starting to be some community around that. One of the things we did at the time is we started putting out a sampler that we would hand out to anybody who would come to the shows. We'd hand out 30,000–50,000 music samplers, and those would feature sort of up-and-coming artists. So it was a way for us to kind of turn people onto new artists that we were digging or that we had relationships with their teams. And so that was kind of a cool little thing that further cemented that we were creating, again, this special event opportunity.

And that was sort of the early impetus for us thinking about a festival. At the same time, we were seeing what was going on with the European festival scene that was super developed. There was a lot of consolidation in the business at this time, so we were seeing a lot of focus on the amphitheater experiences from big concert players, but not really the festival market. There were smaller, more grassroots festivals happening, and we sort of saw this window for a national festival. That was kind of the original idea behind Bonnaroo—do something that had the scale and size that could attract people from all over the country.

And that's kind of why we ended up in Tennessee actually, because Tennessee is really in the middle of the country. The Bonnaroo site actually is about 75% of the U.S. population within a day's drive from that location. It's why FedEx is in Memphis. It's super central. And that was a big part of what we wanted to do. We wanted to do something national. We wanted to do something where people could come from all over the country and live there and kind of create a community around celebrating a particular type of music.

And it wasn't a genre per se, but it was a little bit more of an ethos. It was live performance. Real music. Very multi-genre, but really the essence of it being that the live performance and the connection with the audience was the primary thing that all of these artists shared.

We were very fortunate that it was a smash success at the beginning. It was powered a lot by what was just coming on at the time, which was the internet. This is really the late '90s, early 2000s, as fans were starting to use the internet to communicate. It's pre-social media, so it's things like listservs and message boards where people were communicating around wanting to go to events and supporting their artists.

The other thing that was happening at the time is this is when digital music was coming on. We were literally listening and searching for music off of Napster at the same time as launching Bonnaroo on separate computers—I mean, for real, in our office.

So it was a time for music fans of an explosion of music discovery. All of a sudden, people had access to way more music and in a much easier way to share it with people. And so that really created a dynamic where the idea of going to a festival with a hundred bands was really appealing, because people were making playlists and listening to lots of different stuff.

And so that was how Bonnaroo came about. From there, we've gone on to produce lots of different festivals—music festivals, comedy festivals, culinary festivals. We do a lot of other types of experiences from location-based entertainment, cons, conferences, popups.

The most significant and relevant of which, though, is Outside Lands. And so that's an event that came on the heels of us really pioneering what was going on in the festival scene and looking for other opportunities. One of those opportunities that we saw was that the great city of San Francisco and the Bay Area, which has got this incredible music heritage, didn't have a large-scale music festival. It felt almost unbelievable to us. Like, why of all places? This place should have a grand music festival.

We were very fortunate to meet our partners in Another Planet Entertainment. And back to Ari Welkom—that's how I know Ari, is that his dad, Steve, is one of the principals at Another Planet. He has this great heritage of having been part of the Bill Graham legacy, as do a bunch of the other founders of that business.

We created a partnership with them, and here we are almost 17 years later, about to produce another iteration of Outside Lands. So we've had a great run with it. We love doing this kind of work. We love bringing experiences to people, and it's what drives us. It's our life's work.

Michael: Hmm. So cool. Yeah. Thanks for sharing. And I love hearing stories like that from the very beginning—kind of like the seeds. But in hindsight, it's one thing to kind of look at what you've done now and be like, that's amazing. And in hindsight, it's like, of course. But just hearing the beginning there of like when the seeds are planted and there's this new thing called the internet and it was blossoming, it kind of makes me wonder this: where we're at right now—what are we gonna look at 15, 20 years from now and kind of think the same thing about? Yeah, I love thinking about...

Rick: ...that too. And I think we could talk about it whenever, but I think it's terribly exciting to think about what the future holds for us. Yeah. 

Michael: Awesome. We'll definitely get there. And I mean, a couple of things that came to mind—I would love to hear your perspective on, knowing that a lot of the folks who are listening or watching this right now are indie musicians who are looking to create a career from their music. A big part of what they provide in terms of the service and the value of what they do is the experiences that they create, oftentimes through their live shows or bringing people together and/or doing things that are impactful.

And so, the two big questions that come to mind based on your experience that you could bring are—one is around the creation of that experience, like having an event that people are excited to come out to, like crafting the event. And then the promotion of it and getting people to come out to it. I imagine for a lot of artists who are listening to this, one of the biggest challenges is: how do I actually get people to come out to my shows? It probably starts with having something that's exciting for them to come out to. So to start with, I would love to hear your perspective on what is it that makes an event worth attending? And what do you usually focus on when you're coming into that design space of creativity or thinking about how do we create an amazing event? Like, where should artists start?

Rick: Well, I think there's one central core that probably answers both questions in a lot of ways, especially for young artists. It's really—community is a really key element. Community and collaboration.

I think one of the things that is really an opportunity for young artists, particularly in the live space, is to find other like-minded artists—or artists that, when you're there with them, you're both bringing something to the table. And this is a tried and true thing, of course. We didn't invent this. It's been going on forever, that when you bring artists from different disciplines or different backgrounds or that have different sensibilities—but there's a commonness amongst the vibe of what they're doing—that usually accretes to a lot of connection and value.

In our situation, we witnessed what was going on, for instance, with the HORDE Tour, where they were bringing different artists from different regions together. So there were bands that were stronger in the Northeast, and bands that were stronger in the South, and bands that were stronger in the West, and they would sort of trade opening slots and who was being featured.

A lot of that magic happens when musicians and creatives are collaborating. I think it's a different thing just trying to do your own show in your own town. I mean, there's value to that, of course, and building your own community. But I think a lot of what really creates a snowball effect is when you're really participating as part of a community, collaborating with other musicians, other bands.

Beyond that, I think it's really about thinking about the holisticness of the experience, especially in today's world, where sound and lighting and trying to create some level of connection with the audience in a deeper way—not just a one-to-one necessarily, but trying to find some elements of things that sort of surround the stage performance and create a little bit of visual identity or messaging about what you're doing—I think those things also can really marry with what I'm saying.

So, that's my experience—thinking about the different elements of what your artistic being is, or what the artistic being of your community is, and letting that pervade not just the stage, but also all elements—obviously from your marketing, what your look and feel is, your merchandise, to other special things.

I'll give one example too of something that I think is kind of like a little tidbit that we very nicely ripped from the great Bill Graham. When you go to the Fillmore still, here in San Francisco, there's a big barrel of apples when you walk in the door. And when you walk out, you get a poster for certain shows—most shows, sellout shows.

We used to do very similar things. We used to give away things to fans as they came in, like a CD sampler or some other kind of item that connected to the art. And then we would always give away posters. We wanted people to put that up on their wall. We thought that was the best form of marketing—for people to take something away from our events that they would cherish or at least keep, and hopefully put up in their homes.

So it's those kinds of little tactics. They're bringing things off of just the stage. It's creating a bit of a statement, a little bit of a vibe about what you are presenting, that I think becomes very memorable for people and creates a deeper connection.

Michael: Hmm. Awesome. Super helpful. Yeah. So it sounds like what you're saying is that to start with, just the power of collaboration—of finding other people that are like-minded to you but also diverse. It's sort of like this cross-pollinating, where when you have that cross-pollination, it really is what creates life.

And then you also mentioned a great lesson—that if you can create a memento or something that, when people are there, it transcends just the one-time event, but they can take it home with them—whether it's a poster or some sort of collectible or something they can bring with them to remember the event—then that's a great way to kind of plant those seeds.

Rick: Yeah.

Michael: Hmm. Cool. Curious. I mean, we talked a little bit about the future of where things are headed. Right now feels like a unique time. I mean, maybe it just always feels this way because we're always on the verge of some big revolution. But it certainly feels like right now with AI and with how quickly things are evolving, that we're kind of getting ready to buckle into some major transformation.

I'm curious, for someone like you that's witnessed so much evolution over the course of the last few decades, how do you view the process of evolution as a whole? Obviously, you wouldn't be around for 30 years if you didn't evolve as well—if you didn't continue to ride these new waves that are happening. So I'm curious how you think about the process of evolution, and for someone that, at the time of us recording this, might be witnessing some of these new waves of generative AI—and there's fear and concern around it—how might they approach this in a sustainable way?

Rick: Yeah, well, look, I think human creativity is one of the strongest forces in the universe.

And so I think that everything should be looked at as a tool to put that through. I don't know. I look at, sort of, like, try and always put myself in the shoes of what were the people from generations before thinking about these technology evolutions? And what was scary about them? And what really kind of played out from there, right?

And I think most of the time you've seen sort of an opportunity for creatives rather than something that was negative in terms of the ability to make new creations, express humanity, and to connect with people.

One thing that has sort of been a hallmark for us is that we're always looking at how a communication technology and at-home entertainment media is a precursor to what's going to happen out there in live experiences.

I mentioned this before—that Bonnaroo was being born when digital music was happening, and when pre-social media internet communication was happening. And this really enabled us to create that, right? If those things hadn't happened, the impact on what we were doing wouldn't have been there. And we've seen this—probably four or five cycles of this.

Think about how social media changed the whole need for experiences and the desire for experiences. It created this crazy duality where people want experiences because they're pushing back against digital experiences and the digital world, right? But they're also wanting more experiences because of the digital world. Because to participate in, particularly visual, social media, you need to show people you're doing something. It's sort of currency in that world, right?

And so that's why you've seen a different type of explosion of stuff.

I think currently what we're seeing is that we have generations of people that grew up on gaming. So you're starting to see the production of live experiences mimic that in many ways. First off, people want more agency—because in a video game, you can control how you move around and navigate the environment.

And so you're starting to see more and more experiences where the opportunity is not just linear. It's not just stage and audience, but it's a melding of this. Everybody's using these terms about immersive experiences. To me, that's a total mimic of game environments.

You're starting to see the production of shows, right? You're starting to see lighting rigs and video walls not just be on the stage. You're starting to see them surround and come out into the audience.

And so I think it's those kinds of things that—again—if you look at where the technology's happening at home and in media entertainment, you can kind of predict what's going to happen in live experience. It's a direct corollary.

So when you think about AI, I mean, the piece for me that I'm thinking a lot about right now and that's resonating with me is the opportunity to contextualize and personalize experiences. Because AI allows the rapid iteration of content creation, right?

I think that's going to be the case for people who are making music at home too. For starters, I think people are going to be able to make way more dynamic music much more quickly.

And as a quick tangent, just to go back to some history on this—if you just think about how much modern software and modern instruments, in a way—samplers, things like that—have allowed the ability for more people to create. Right? Like, you used to really have to have a certain level of physical dexterity to create. Right? Now you don't need that as much.

So people who are really brilliant creatives, who were limited by this physical factor, are no longer taken out of the realm of people that can create meaningful music. I think a lot of today's modern musicians—if they were born in the 1800s—they couldn't create what they create now.

So that's what I'm saying. You have to look at these things as though they're just another set of tools. And I think most of these tools are enabling people to do more stuff.

So with AI, I think what it's really creating is these opportunities to create more personalized content. Somebody could write a song and they could actually make a version of that song for each one of their fans—almost instantly—in ways that we never could have done something like that.

Think about the content that you show if you're at the level where you can have video. Most people build their shows where it's like one show, right? Because there's so much effort to create one show, and you've got cues and all the things that you gotta do to make that show.

And if you're traveling from Austin to Houston, you can't just—"Oh my God, I have an idea! I want to change what my show is when I get to Houston because there's something I remember about the last time I was there, and it'd be really cool if I could do something that's contextual for my show in Houston."

Now you can probably do that on the drive over. Create an edit. Create a contextual thing.

So I think those are where the opportunities are gonna lie going forward—to do things that use these tools in ways that allow for creation that never could have been made. And I think if you get yourself in that headspace, then I think the fear will go down, and the opportunity will go up.

Michael: Ah, man, that's so exciting.

So what I'm hearing you say is that, one, if you look at the trend of history, there's been many times that we've had this feeling of, there's a new tool, a technology, it's something that's a revolution. And often it comes with a lot of disruption and change, but ultimately, it's led to creatives and people being more empowered—to be able to stop doing things that were time-consuming, that weren't really as important as the creative process itself.

And so you think that's one way to look at what's happening right now—to look at it as an opportunity to express yourself more creatively. And because these tools are making it more and more simple and possible to create rapidly, that gives rise to more of an opportunity to personalize and contextualize these experiences so that they're more relevant to the specific crowd—or an audience member, even the individual.

They might all have their own branch of experience as they're connecting to this one event.

This is so interesting to me. I wonder—I don't know if you ever think about this—but our individuality as it relates to when we come together for these shows. In the past, we had just a few channels—mainstream channels—and so much of our identities were sort of grouped into these five main channels.

Now there's this huge distribution of all these different channels.

And I also wonder about the source—when we go to a show, part of what's powerful is that you do get to transcend your own individuality in some ways and come together with a community.

So, do you think that—how does that relate to these personalized experiences? On the opposite end, I imagine if it gets extremely personalized and it's like every single thing we do, we might be in a matrix where it's just me and it's all me.

But obviously, that seems kind of dystopian. So I'm curious how you see this also connecting with that wider community aspect of creating personalized experiences that also reflect the wider wholeness.

Rick: Wider? Well, I think, as distribution channels have become more bespoke, as you're saying, and sort of decentralized, it just means that people can kind of find their communities more easily. I mean, and that's why you've seen, like, there's a bit of ification of things. And I think net-net, it's probably meaning there's more creatives, more people getting opportunities to sort of connect emotionally with content that really hits them, right?

There's less gatekeepers. So, there's trade-offs within that. Obviously, we still have big mega stars. I don't downplay the fact that it's harder at times for upcoming musicians to get mindshare, but at the same time, there are these direct opportunities. If you're doing something that's really great and connecting with an audience, the opportunity for that audience to find you, I think, is much greater than it was without those kinds of things.

And fortunately, we do have some platforms that are more ubiquitous than others, right? YouTube being sort of really interesting in that regard where it's like almost everything is there. And so, if you're looking for something, you can find it. And if you're trying to find an audience, it's at least a tool that everybody basically has access to.

So, I think all of these things—it's not 100% one way or the other, right? It's all gray. I'll give you another sort of riff on this too, which is, I think also that all the things I said before about these opportunities to use these tools is one path, but another path is to go the other direction, right? To use just acoustic instruments or traditional instrumentation. To not allow digital devices at your events, right?

That's actually something that's becoming a premium now. In a way, it's a premium to be disconnected. Think about how weird that is, but what an opportunity that is, in a way. So I think these things are like, this is the opportunity that each artist has—right?—is to sort of interpret the world, not just from what you're creating, but what you want to present to the world and the atmosphere and the context, and again, the community that you want to do that with.

You can be somebody who goes with the direction of things, but also you can be somebody who says, "Hey, you know what? My thing's about pushing back against that, or separating from that, or creating a different type of environment." So I think it's really for each artist ultimately to just think deeply about how to navigate that dynamic, right?

And there's some people that'll figure out how to do both at the same time. If you think about something like ambient music, that's almost in the middle of it. Because a lot of those events and experiences require you to not have a device on you and to be very present, but a lot of the music is being generated using some of the most progressive music-making techniques out there.

So I think that the way to think about these things as an artist is: "Hey, what is true to you? How can you think about how to create the greatest connection—the one that is really true to you?" And I think most of the time, if you're coming from that place, there are other people out there that are going to feel that, right?

There is an audience. It may be an audience that's smaller or bigger, but it will be an audience that really can feel that deeper connection with you because you are architecting these things. You are thinking about how to use all these tools in a way that expresses what you're trying to be creatively—what your expression is of art and humanity.

And so, I think that's really the way to think about it, as much as possible. Yeah, that's how I think about these things.

Michael: Hmm. Awesome. Love this conversation. One thing that I would love to hear your perspective on is around these experiences and events and shows.

I'm guessing that one of the main things that you've found—or part of the reason that you've been able to create such incredible events—is because of the community and the connection that you create. Not only between the artist and the audience, but also between the community itself and the audience with other audience members.

And so I'm curious—how do you help really foster this community? Or maybe for an artist who is more of an indie artist and they know that they have maybe three or four hundred people that are going to be coming to a show, and they want to create a really special experience where it's not just— I mean, maybe it is about them and about the art, but it's really about this community and connecting them with each other.

What are some creative ways that they can think about transcending the arts and making it even a deeper-knit community?

Rick: Yeah. Couple things come to mind. I mean, I think most artists know that you kind of have like your sort of initial champions, right? Your big-time flag wavers.

And I think really connecting with them and empowering them to really create a community and feel like, "Hey, they're part of you," and they have enough connection with you to feel like, "Alright, I want to do more."

Whether that's a meetup before a show, whether that's setting up a fan page—all of those things.

Early in my career, when I was more of a manager and producing a lot of up-and-coming bands, it was really stark to me. There were two bands that were, I won't use the names, but they were playing almost the same kind of music.

There was one of the bands—their backstage after the show would be like a hundred people, like a quarter of the audience. And they knew all their fans. They really engaged with them. And then the other band—it was like a morgue backstage. There was nobody there. They weren’t having a particularly good time, it usually looked like.

It was pretty easy to predict that the band that had all this connection with their fans—they’re still around today, living a great lifestyle around the art that they create. And the other band? Not so much. They maybe play every now and then. It's not a full-time thing for them anymore.

So I think, to me, I just saw—not every artist is social, not every artist wants to hang out with their fans, and that's not a requirement for making great art. But I do think if you're somebody who is willing to go there and be extroverted and you want to create community around what you do, then it's that engagement with your fans that can really do that.

Now, the next thing I'll say here is that I do think again that this is where tools are available and you can kind of be deliberate. I think there are some really cool community-building things that are going to come out of AI—the ability for your fans to know who they want to connect with and the fact that they’re coming in through this shared art.

I don't think there's many things that people want to come together on more than music. If somebody is into that band, it's the ultimate icebreaker. It's the easiest way to say, "Oh, maybe I'll be friends with that person because they dig that band. I dig that band. Cool."

So I think even promoting the sort of social connection between people and using some of the tools out there to power that—I think we're going to see artists do some really amazing stuff with that.

Now, by the way, you don't have to do that in the digital sphere either. I'll give you a funny example: one of the things I always wanted to do at Bonnaroo—we never got a chance to do it—but I always thought it would be funny if we gave everybody a "Hello, my name is..." name tag with somebody else's name on it.

So you spent the whole time at the festival with this thing on, trying to find the other person who was there.

And literally, you could do things like that with just physical stuff, not digital. Just be like, "Hey, give a reason for your fans to connect." It may sound like a cheesy thing—it probably is—like, "Hey, when you walk into a show, it's almost like going to a conference," but you have some funny play on it where you're enticing people to connect with each other in some way.

So I think that's the way to think about it as much as possible. How can I facilitate people creating friendships, creating real connection around the fact that they are coming for my art?

And that art is the connection between people. It is such a powerful opportunity to go beyond the value proposition of just your art. The value proposition is people connecting.

One of the great things that's happened to us in our careers of creating events and experiences is that people have met their best friends, their significant others. They have families—lifelong things—from coming to the things we do.

It's so powerful—both personally and just for your business world—that if you can create those kinds of connections... And I think art and music is such a grand opportunity to facilitate those things.

And so the more you do that, the more your art goes beyond just this connection of what your art is doing for people emotionally. It's creating a whole other layer again of community and personal connection that I think will radiate back to the value of your art.

Michael: Hmm. That's super helpful. Just for context, Rick, when you mentioned having a community platform or software, that you think there's a big opportunity for people coming together to build these communities—

Just last week, we released our software as a service called StreetTeam. And it's basically exactly what you just described. That’s the heart of why we created it.

Because we think that the fact that some of the most popular music companies in the world right now—you can't actually see who your fans are, and they can't see who each other are, and they can't talk to each other and have conversations and community—is totally weird and broken.

It sounds like what you're saying—there's a bunch of gems in there—but a few of the points that I wanted to reiterate because I thought these were so powerful:

To start with, really empowering those street team leaders—those people that are your champions. Those people at the beginning that absolutely love you. And they get so much value just by the acknowledgment and by spending time with you.

And so by you shining a light on them and empowering them and making them feel special, it's a great way to help spread the word.

And just in general, connecting and building a relationship—engaging with your fans—that's something that's going to build the roots of your community. So that when there's a storm, the roots are deep, and they're connected.

Awesome. So cool. Mark, this has been a really fun conversation. I appreciate you coming on here and sharing some of the lessons that you've learned in the past few decades.

And for anyone that's listening or watching this right now, and they are interested in diving deeper or connecting with your company—maybe we have someone who's interested in collaborating on an experience—what's the best place for them to go to connect or get in touch?

Rick: Well, you can check out our website at Superfly.com. All the basic info about what we do and who we are is there.

I'm on LinkedIn and social media a bit. I like helping people out too. With the time that I have—sometimes I don't always have the time—but a big part of my life's work, of course, is supporting creatives.

I'm not personally really a deep creative. I do some creative stuff, but my quick story around that is I realized pretty quickly that I was not going to be a musician.

When I went down to New Orleans and I saw the level of musicianship—because I didn’t start as a musician—I was like, "Whoa. Look at those guys. I can’t keep up with that."

So I shifted into this mode of creating experiences and producing things that would help further people learning about new music and connecting around music.

And so, if people have ideas or things that they’re seeing out there that we can be helpful with, we always love to do that.

Michael: Awesome. We'll include the links in the show notes for easy access. And Rick, it's been a lot of fun. Thank you again for coming on the podcast today.

Rick: Likewise, man. Really fun. Thanks.