Michael Walker: All right, I'm excited to be here today with my new friend, Daniel Sander. So Daniel is the Chief Commercial Officer at Feature.fm, which is driving the development of tools that enhance artist-fan engagement and streamline music marketing efforts. He introduced features like Future Save to help automate and optimize the release process for artists.

And I mean, that's such a game changer. I know it's so important for artists to be able to get pre-saves and help promote their releases. And so that idea that Feature.fm introduced of being able to save once and then have it auto-save all of your future releases is a game changer.

He's an advocate for independent artists, collaborating with platforms like Bandcamp to increase revenue opportunities and help support sustainable careers for artists.

So Dan, thank you so much for taking the time to hop on the podcast today. I'm looking forward to connecting a little bit more about the future of music marketing and what you're building with Feature.fm.

Daniel Sander: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to having a good conversation as well.

Michael: Absolutely. I mean, I know right before we hopped on here, kind of in the green room, we were talking about the fact that we're both new parents. So you have a 2-year-old. And so we're talking about the future of music marketing.

I really kind of think about what kind of world are our kids gonna grow up in, and what are we creating here in terms of the seeds that we're planting that they're going to reap.

I'm looking forward to hearing your perspective on how we can create a win-win-win across the board.

To start with, would love to hear a little bit more about your story in terms of how you found yourself becoming the Chief Commercial Officer at Feature.fm.

Daniel: Yeah, sure. So I've been at Feature.fm for about 10 years now. I've been here since the beginning, just before the founding team was launching the first product, launching the company.

My story really starts in music, at least. I am more of a hobbyist musician. I would consider myself more of a songwriter. I've been playing all my life, songwriting all my life. I never tried to do it professionally. Not something that I ever seriously went into, but definitely a hobbyist. I'm always down to jam with anybody.

I started my career professionally actually in the finance world, in banking. I was at one of the big banks at the time. I was focused on helping large corporate multinational companies in their banking efforts. I was really much more on the cash flows and liquidity side.

I quickly realized early on that was not for me. That was not ultimately the path that I wanted to be on. I wanted to do something more creative, something that I was more passionate about. So I was young enough at the time that I could take a risk of just simply quitting and making it my full-time job to find something that I would have more passion in.

So just through those efforts, I was introduced to the team that was building the early version of Feature.fm, said, why don't I start working with you guys, see where I can help? And now I've been there ever since.

Michael: Awesome. Cool.

Yeah, I would love to hear, just from your perspective, just in case someone's not super familiar with Feature.fm and they are wondering what the platform's for, kind of like the mission that you have to serve—can you talk a little bit about the biggest problem that Feature.fm helps to solve?

Daniel: In terms of the—

Michael: —biggest—

Daniel: —problem, I think it's the same challenge that there's ever been, which is artists spend countless hours creating the music, writing the music, recording the music, putting together everything creative around the album—visual creations, everything that's going around the music—but once they are essentially releasing it with the world and ready to release it with the world, there's the question of how do I promote it and actually build a fanbase.

And even more so today, related to that, is how do I even know who my fans are?
 I think our mission as a company, what we state our mission is, is to help artists turn their passion into a successful business—with "business" being the key word. And the way in which we do that, where we view our role in it, is to help artists connect their fans to really every aspect of their business.

Because artists are doing more today than ever before. And the avenues in which they might surround themselves as an artist and as a business is greater than ever before.

Michael: Hmm. Awesome.

Man, I feel like that mission or that heart is my life as well for the past eight years of bonding musicians. So I love that you've built this tool around that core.

And I'd love to hear your perspective. I think you probably bring a pretty unique perspective in terms of the music industry from your background in finance. And it sounds like you had sort of an experience where it's like, okay, you learned some of these things and you realized, "Oh, this isn't really where my heart's at, where my passion is." But also, I imagine that a lot of those tools and what you learned is actually extremely valuable for the music industry as a whole.

So I'm curious to hear your perspective on maybe some unique insights or things that you've noticed that seem obvious to you just because of your background, but maybe aren't super clear or obvious to artists at first.

Daniel: So I think that, yeah, first, you're exactly right. I think that even if you're doing something that you're not super passionate about, you can always learn something.

What I found is that, at least for our business—so, it's interesting—I always take the mindset of, I have a business mind. So I'm always taking the mindset of comparing how we're building our business to the same way that artists can build their business.

I think that the first thing to take into account for artists is really just how do you establish yourself professionally as a business? What does that actually mean? I think the first thing is to look at maybe incorporating yourself as a business. So doing something like starting an LLC, making sure that you have the right template agreements in place, making sure that you actually are going about things the right way.

I think another thing that artists might tend to look at, especially in the DIY culture, is that when you're talking about DIY, it doesn't mean you literally have to do it all yourself.

If you are growing any business, sort of the founding team is starting to build something—maybe you have a team of two people, three people.

So you have to kind of find those co-founders on your journey. Who are the people that are going to help you build, and what are their respective roles in it?

If you're kind of like a creative director of the business, who is the CEO? Who's the business manager? Who's the marketing director? Who's handling the back-office financial and accounting stuff? Who's on the legal team?

And as you grow, you kind of find that you're doing a lot of these different things yourself. Maybe you are wearing many hats, but as you grow, you can kind of fill in the roles and fill in the needs to help you get to the next level.

Michael: Hmm. Awesome.

Yeah, so it sounds like what you're saying is that one really important thing is, just from a structure standpoint, making sure that you have something like the legal components figured out, and also thinking about your team and how you structure it as a business and hiring some key roles early on as sort of like co-founders.

I'm curious what you think in terms of if an artist is listening or watching this right now, and they feel like they need help and they feel like they need a team, but they're not really sure where to start, or they're kind of wondering, "Who's my first team member?

What's the very first thing that I should start in terms of expanding this so it's not just me alone doing music, but I have one person?"

Do you have any advice or thoughts around what that role might be and how they might go about finding that person?

Daniel: Yeah, it's a good question. I think—not to have a definitive answer—but it could be different depending on the artist's situation. I think that if we're talking about what's the solution to the biggest challenge that artists have, which is the marketing and promotion—getting their stuff out there—

So kind of the first thing is, it's a mindset, right? Of how you look at yourself as a business in the industry. And if we're talking about building a team, it's like when you're kind of building yourself—you’re the artist, you're the creative director, and you are creating the music.

You have the creative vision, but you probably have some other skills. Like maybe you do have skills in digital marketing, which today largely encompasses content creation, which is also creative. But maybe you have those skill sets around CRM and fanbase management, email communications. We see tons of artists today that have skill sets around using retargeting data appropriately and running conversion campaigns and all of that stuff.

So if you're skilled there, maybe you need somebody who is going to go out and advocate for you—get you live shows, get you bookings. So maybe you really need a booking agent to make sure you're out there actually performing.

If you're not skilled in those areas, I would highly suggest finding somebody who can help you in digital marketing, help you in content creation, because it is so important today. Maybe you're looking for more of a finance manager. Maybe you are getting yourself to a place that you are able to launch different online businesses in your storefront and now you need somebody to help manage all the revenue streams.

So I think it really depends on what the artist's skill sets are and then filling in the gaps that they might not have.

Michael: Hmm. Awesome. So it sounds like what you're saying is that it kind of depends on the situation and where the greatest needs are.

And so, I mean, it might be a little bit hard—almost like a fish in water—where it's like, "There's water around here?" They lack perspective on filling in their gaps.

So I'm curious—how does an artist do that self-analysis and figure out for themselves how they can fill in that gap with that first person?

Daniel: Write it down.

Michael: I—

Daniel: I mean, put together what you actually want.

You have to write down what your goals are. What are you trying to achieve? What is your vision for yourself as an artist? What is the point that you want to get to?

And then breaking it down into smaller steps. It sounds like homework, but I think it's a very important exercise to actually be able to put down what's the plan and put out a vision.

And when you put it down, you can say, "Alright, these are the things I need to achieve. This is what I can do. What do I need to accomplish that I cannot do?"

And that'll help uncover those gaps that you might want to fill in.

Michael: Hmm. That's super smart.

And I feel like it's one of those things that is almost like common knowledge, but not necessarily common practice.

But it's so important—starting with the end in mind, setting that down, getting it into writing.
 Maybe kind of like if you're trying to go somewhere—like go on a trip without a map—you have no way to get there or GPS.

And if you don't know where you're trying to get to, anywhere's going to get you there. Was it Alice in Wonderland that has that quote about going in any direction—it will get you there if you don't know where you're trying to get?

Yeah. Awesome.

Maybe we can zoom out a little bit and look at the future of where things are headed. We talked a little bit about the state of fan communities and knowing who your fans are, building relationships. I'm curious, from your perspective, where do you think the shift is happening right now? And if an artist is listening to this right now and they want to swim along with the wave that’s cresting so they can get that momentum when it shoots forward, what are some of the things you’d recommend they start with, that they’re aware of, and that they’re kind of swimming along with?

Daniel: Yeah, I mean, I think a big buzzword today is super fans. Everyone's talking about the super fans. But super fans have always been there.

I think it's something that artists should have always been able to tap into. But I think the big shift today is the trend of needing to actually know who your fans are.

That is one of the biggest challenges for artists in the music industry—how do I actually know who my fans are? How do I contact them? In a lot of ways, this information was always managed through intermediaries.

So like, the record stores would know who their customers are. The streaming services know who their customers are. The tour promoters would—then if you have like a merch fulfillment partner—So it was always sort of kept at arm’s length in a very weird way. But artists now—and managers—they understand the need to control and manage who their actual fans are.

And not just know who they are, but understand their behaviors.

There’s a lot more products and tools that are CRM-focused, that are fan collection-focused. I can plug Feature.fm—obviously us being one of them. But there are a number of tools that artists work with in conjunction that help them manage their fanbase, communicate with their fans, send them the right offers at the right time.

And it goes back to this notion that today, more than ever, artists are doing more than they ever did. They are everywhere all at once. They’re on more platforms. They are doing more than just the traditional revenue streams that you see in music. They're maybe branching out into new things.

And when it comes to all of these new things that artists are doing and being on all of these platforms, you need somewhere to actually point the fans to. Where are the fans going to engage with you, or get to whatever area of your business you want to promote today? Maybe today you want them to listen to your album. Tomorrow you want them to go watch your new video, to buy a concert ticket, to visit your merch store, to join a contest— Whatever it is that you're doing. So I think owning those relationships, collecting fan contact info, rewarding your biggest fans in unique and creative ways—these are the trends that artists should be focusing on and thinking about.

Michael: Hmm, that's so good. Yeah, I mean, it's absolutely mind-blowing to me. And probably you’d know this better than most people—just how important it is with an online business to own your list and be able to communicate with them. And having a CRM integration—and the fact that most artists or most of the music business doesn’t necessarily have that—is kind of wild.

Some of the biggest music platforms in the world—artists don’t know who their fans are. They can’t connect with them or build a relationship or send them a message. It’s wildly out of balance.

I'd love to hear a little bit more about Feature.fm in terms of, yeah, as a tool—what are some of the things that you've found artists finding most valuable on the platform? And maybe you can share some sneak peeks about what's around the corner that you're personally most excited about.

Daniel: Yeah, I mean, the problems that we talked about today is essentially—that is what we're working on. We're working on exactly these problems. I think from both a product perspective, with the goal for our product to actually support artists as they build their businesses and careers, but also from more of just like guidance and educational perspective around a number of different topics on the artist journey. And these could be things not related specifically to how our product helps, but we even launched a new series called FFM Academy, with the idea that each episode will be like a unique individual with a different expertise in the music industry.

So like, episode one is the lawyer. We're gonna do a publicist, syncing, music director, even the DIY artist. So the idea is to help educate artists around that as well.

Again, it goes back to artists doing more than they ever did before—so beyond music, touring, merch, creating content, building communities, opening new business lines. So our focus in terms of Feature.fm development is: how do we support artists in their ability to just get their fans to all of these different places, as well as even facilitating purchases, transactions?

I think we've been using this kind of term even for the value that we want to deliver to artists, which is: how do we become a revenue center and not a cost center? So something that is actually driving value and actual revenue to help artists build their businesses, rather than something that is like an expense in the line items.

So yeah, essentially this is kind of what we're focusing on. I think we're going to be looking at adding and improving more capabilities around artists being able to continue to communicate with their fans.

So basically today, what our customers use us for is sort of like—we are the destination that you are sending your fans to through all of your promotional channels. So if you are sharing your content or sharing posts online, on social media, in emails—even if you're getting written about, or if you have a viral moment and suddenly you're blowing up on TikTok—you need a place to say, "Hey fans, this is how you can connect with me. This is where you can go."

And generally, they're using us to create those different landing pages and experiences, to send the fans there, collect the fan contact info, and then understand who your audience is—maybe send the data to your different retargeting programs.

So we have an initial use case already where artists are able to automatically send release reminders and things like that.

I think this is something that artists see a lot of value in and is definitely an area we're going to be looking at in terms of how to actually improve those parts of our products—where artists can now stay connected to their fan base, better communicate with them, make sure they're always able to get the proper message to the right fan at the right time.

Michael: Hmm. Sweet. So it sounds like what you're saying is you have—right now you've built some amazing tools around helping artists to collect the fan data and actually own it. And now you'd like to focus on helping nurture the relationship between the artist and the fan, and turning it—I love how you put it—in terms of turning it into a revenue-generating asset.
 It's not a cost center; it's a revenue center.

One thing that I'm sure you've come across a lot as well—and I'd love to hear your perspective on, especially considering your background—is in music in particular for artists, there's maybe a little bit of a stigma, I don't know if that's the right word, but there's sort of a fear around making money with their music.

There are mixed feelings because, like, as artists, we want to make money—as humans and as artists, as businesses, we know we want to.

And sometimes I think as artists, we feel guilty about wanting to make money, or feel like we don't—or at least we don't want to be seen as wanting to make money, or that it's going to kind of tarnish our reputation.

There is the valid concern of, like, "selling out" and focusing too much on it.

So I'd just love to hear your perspective on, in terms of mindset for artists as it relates to their business and the value of revenue generation, and how they should be thinking about their business and their relationship with money—so they can provide more value to their community.

Daniel: Yeah, I get it. Look, everybody has to make a living. And if you want to be a professional artist, you have to make enough money to live. You can decide how far you want to go—like, do you want to be a huge business? Do you want to be a more altruistic business? What is the philosophy that you have?

So every artist can be authentic to what matters to them. But what they can't ignore is that if you want to be a full-time artist, you have to at least make enough money to live.

And I think that in terms of how you need to get there, it's like—yeah, you have to be able to monetize your art. You have to be able to monetize your journey in some way. It doesn’t mean you have to do it in an inauthentic way. It doesn’t mean you have to focus on, like, “What is the maximum amount of money I can make? How do I build a huge business with all these different revenue streams?” That’s not what you need to do. It’s up to the artist—how they want to achieve that goal.

I think what we see is even just like an explosion of this burgeoning middle class of artists, if you will, where not everybody has to be a Taylor Swift billionaire. You can make a living off your music—where you have a career in it, this is what you’re doing, and you are able to sustain yourself based off of your music.

So that’s how I would look at it. It’s really up to the individual artist to define what their goals are and how they want to go about making that living.

Michael: Hmm. Yeah, that’s a great answer. So it sounds like what you’re saying is that ultimately, making money is just sort of a necessity if you want to have a career as a musician. And so you don’t necessarily have to be like Taylor Swift or be a billionaire, but there is a middle class that’s opening up, in large part because of tools like Feature.fm, to help artists that don’t have the backing of a major record label to actually have a real business.

And so it’s something that, when they’re doing their goal setting, maybe they can kind of reflect on and see—what do I need to get to in order to feel good and to be able to have that freedom?

Cool. So zooming out a little bit—Right now obviously there are some major revolutions happening in terms of the technological world, with AI.

Music plus AI is a bit controversial. We’re still figuring stuff out in terms of copyrights—what does this new tool mean for creatives? Are we going to be replaced?

I’d love to hear your perspective on this as a tool. Do you think that AI is like all the previous revolutions, in that it ultimately is just a tool that’s going to help artists do what they do? Or do you think there’s actually something a little more existential about this particular form of digital intelligence?

Daniel: Yeah, I think one of the quotes you see going around the internet that I really like is, like, "I want AI to do the dishes and the laundry so that I can create and make art, rather than the AI make the art so that I have time to do the dishes and the laundry," which I get. And I think as humans, we obviously want to be creative, especially in the creative industry for artists, for myself as well.

Yeah, in terms of an existential threat, I'm not so sure. I think there's always still going to be a need for human artists who want to go out and create the art and song, right? I think very largely AI is also a tool to help you get there faster depending on how you use it. I do think that it's not a fad—AI is definitely a revolutionary technology that is going to be here for the long term, for sure.

But in terms of the way that we are looking at it, we're looking at the sort of utility of AI more along the lines of where it fits into the value that we're offering to artists, which is around using it almost as a marketing assistant or a coach in order to help you in the tasks that we're looking to help artists achieve—building their career, getting their music out there, promoting, creating content, and actually sharing their music and connecting with their fans. We very much look at it as a tool in helping artists build their business and all of the areas that AI can help fill in around that.

When it comes to the whole conversation around copyright and training and ownership, that is something that I think is a little bit more advanced than for me to give a proper educated comment on right now, because I know that there are a lot of healthy debates happening around it. So I'll leave it at that as it relates to the copyright side of things.

We also see there's definitely a lot of what I would call AI anxiety—AI fear—because we're still in a process of even just truly understanding what all of the implications and ramifications will be. People feel a bit left out in terms of fully wrapping their heads around how should I be using it? How can I be using it? If I'm not using it already, am I behind?

But I think everybody's in that same boat right now. So I think all of those answers will happen as the technology progresses and as you see developments both in the technology, how it's regulated, what legislators actually do as it relates to the copyright and IP. So, more to come there.

Michael: Hmm. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I'm in a similar boat where I'm glad that there are people who are smarter than I am who are trying to answer that particular question right now.

One question for you, especially related to your background in finance: obviously for many artists, one of the limiting constraints is funding. When they're just getting started, they might not have a lot of initial resources or funding to put into things like recording, marketing, and promotion and ads.

Curious if you think there's an opportunity—like what would you recommend for an artist who is maybe starting out—and let's just imagine that they’re like a gem. They actually have some amazing music and they have a great product that people are going to really resonate with. They have a good personality. They're willing to connect with their fans and build relationships the right way. And their biggest constraint really is just capital. What would your recommendation for them be to get things started?

Daniel: Yeah, good question. Comment on something you just said that I think struck with me just in terms of like, the artist has good music. They have great music. Assuming all of that is true, in terms of actually building the fan base that is going to support your career and be able to financially help you grow—it's true. Assuming that your music and your content—I don't like to use the word "is good" because I think good is so subjective in music—but assuming that your music and your content will resonate with at least some size of an audience.

I think you can first start with finding all of the channels to share it with the world that are free. This is where, even though artists say they don’t want to be content creators, these are free channels. You don't have to pay for it. You don’t have to buy ads. These are places you can at least start to share things with the world. You have a chance of it going viral. You have an ability to reach a lot of fans with it and to actually find them. So this gives you a great first free channel into getting your music out there and finding the audience that will resonate with your sound and what you are doing as an artist.

In terms of more of the core upfront costs that it takes just to get there—you mentioned recording costs, studio costs, you probably have equipment. It’s a tough answer if you're starting from literally zero. You have to get a bit scrappy. Even in the startup world, there are companies that go and raise tons of money, but then you need to get to a place that you have something presentable, and you're usually doing that in a bit of a scrappy way.

So maybe you're collaborating, maybe you're finding friends, maybe you're using your network and just finding ways to get it done with little to no funding until you get to a point that maybe you have something to show.

This is where you can go out and see, “Okay, what are my different funding options?” I think there are more options today than there were back in the day when it was like a 360 record deal where I sell my soul or not. Today there’s a lot more options. You can find an investor, you can find a business partner, you can go to different funding tools.

I know like DeepRed is the one that comes to mind. I think you already have to have some level of streams to go to some of those advanced-level type of options. But you can find a label partner that’s more indie-friendly, that is doing a 50/50 co-ownership—you get your masters back type of deal.

So, seek and you shall find. That is kind of the answer. You have to just get started, do what you can to be a bit scrappy, and then seek and find what the right funding options are to help get you to the next level.

Michael: Awesome. Yeah, there's that—what's the quote? "When the student's ready, the mentor will appear." So similar to like, seek and you'll find. And it sounds like what you're saying is that there are free channels that people can get started on, and so that's probably where to start. If they feel like the constraint is money, well, great—use the free channels that you have to put your music out. Start sharpening the saw. And when the time is right, then you might start considering some of the different tools that are available in terms of capital—funds to be able to pull from.

That's interesting. This is actually very new territory to me, so that's part of why I ask you, 'cause I think you probably have a better understanding of it. But that's really interesting—kind of understanding these different options that artists actually kind of have, whether they have like an established catalog that already has proven revenue coming in or they're just starting out.

Is a traditional business loan an option? Or like credit card? I mean, I know when I started Modern Musician, I was just off touring full-time for 10 years, just bought a house, and I was about to have a kid. I didn't have any money to invest, but I basically put it on a personal credit card, which was stressful. But also, I wouldn't be here right now if I hadn't made some of those big investments. What are your thoughts on that—getting a loan, like a business type of loan for an artist?

Daniel: Yeah, it's not uncommon to dip into the credit and liquidity that you might have already available to you. If you're talking like personal credit cards, it's a bit more of a risk, 'cause now you have personal debt that you're putting into your business.

But people will bet on themselves, especially when it's like, "Hey, this is the funding that I have." There's a reason that founders of companies are initially putting their own capital into that business—because that's what it's taking to get it off the ground.

So credit card's probably not the most ideal. If you could go the route of getting a loan, you're probably going to get better terms, better rates. If you are taking that loan out against an actual company, like an LLC that you incorporated, then you're kind of protecting personal assets for yourself. If you are going to have issues in the future, then they can't come after your personal assets.

But yeah, I mean, I think that it's an option if you need to go that route. I would try to avoid dipping into personal debt to get there. Obviously, if you have money in the bank that you're able to then invest in yourself, that's a different story, 'cause that's actual cash. But if you're talking the debt route, probably trying to do a business loan is going to be a better option for you than dipping into personal credit cards.

Michael: Totally makes sense. Yeah, I can speak from experience. With me doing that, it was one of the most stressful years of my life—kind of getting it off the ground. And totally, if I had a little bit more grounding in terms of understanding my options, maybe I would've tried to go for more of a business-type loan rather than starting with credit.

But okay, cool. So this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate you hopping on here and talking a little bit about the fundamentals of what's important for an artist to focus on, and what's the kind of the new wave of going deeper into those fundamentals and using the tools that are available to them. Also, some interesting territory that we answered around finances and helping artists be resourceful.

Could you share for anyone that's watching this or that's interested in learning more about Feature.fm and setting up for an account—how does that work? And what's the best way for them to get started and experience a quick win using the platform?

Daniel: Yeah. I mean, first thing—just to connect with us and start using the platform—anybody could sign up. We're open to everybody, from artists to managers, labels, up to enterprise companies. But anybody could sign up for their own Feature.fm account, start playing with the product, start a free trial, start getting support from us.

That's also the best way to stay up to date on what we're building—new features, any sort of resources that we might share. You can also follow us on our socials. We expect our YouTube channel is probably going to get a bit more active now that we are rolling out our FFM Academy series. So you'll start seeing more expert guests on that as well.

And then of course, across all of our socials, we'll be looking to share more content just around the business, around those resources, and around what we're doing.

Michael: Awesome. Well, like always, we'll put the links in the show notes for easy access. And Dan, it's been a lot of fun having you on the podcast. Thank you again for taking the time.

Daniel: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. It was great.