Michael Walker: Yeah. Okay. I'm excited to be here today with my new friend, Andy Baker. So Andy has a crowdfunding platform called Rocket Fuel that has empowered independent artists to raise over a million dollars for albums, tours, and creative projects. And he helps artists, especially independent artists without a record label, be able to fund their dreams and connect with their fans. So excited to have him on the podcast today to talk a little bit about Rocket Fuel and some of the frameworks that they've developed for helping indie artists to build careers and have more ownership without requiring a record label. So, Andy, thank you so much for being on the podcast today.

Andy Baker: Oh, it's great to be with you, Michael. Sorry I couldn't join you in person today, but hopefully in the future.

Michael: Hopefully very, very soon. I mean, I would also love to make a trip overseas as well to the UK. Absolutely. I toured there once, probably about 10 years ago now, so it's been a hot minute. Okay.

Andy: You're very welcome. Where did you visit then when you came last time?

Michael: All of the big places. I mean, London, I think, was the best show that we played out there.

Andy: Oh, you're on tour in Glasgow.

Michael: Oh, great stuff. But I would love to hear a little bit about your story with Rocket Fuel. A million dollars is a great thing to do for independent artists. Absolutely. A million dollars—how many streams equivalent would that be? It would be a lot of streams, probably a lot more than most indie artists get. So we'd love to hear a little bit about how you started the platform and your why that drove it forward.

Andy: Yeah, so I'm a musician like yourself. I've been all over the world playing lots of shows in lots of different ways. As a music director, I've worked as a writer and producer, and I got into artist management kind of by accident. I think the fact was I was making records for friends, and then they were like, “Well, what do we do now, Andy? What do we do with these songs we've made?” I'm like, “Well, you need to book some shows, and then you need to get on the radio, and you need to do this, and you need to do that.” So I kind of accidentally ended up managing a couple of acts and had some success with the first band that I was managing. And then I had an artist who I ended up working with for 13 years, actually—an artist called Philippa Hanna, who became quite successful in the Christian and gospel music industry. And we had a great working relationship over, say, 13 years or so. And along that journey we went through all of the challenges that you might expect an independent artist to face. “How do I quit the day job so I can focus on music? Now I've quit the day job, how do we build a team around us so that we can market? How do we get enough shows coming in? How do we get big opportunities? How do we fund the next project?” And so over the course of a few years we built Philippa's audience up. We built the team up, but the overheads, the costs, were also going up and up and up. And we used every platform you could imagine. We had an online store. We sold merch. We did crowdfunding. We found innovative ways to get people to donate. But we got to the point where we'd done all of this, and we thought, “Well, what's the best way to increase the lifetime value of a fan? What's the way that we can make it the easiest for a fan to contribute in the way that they'd like to?” And that's where we came up with the idea for Rocket Fuel: one place that you could point your fans to, to engage them, to monetize them, help them feel part of your journey. So that's what we did, actually just over 10 years ago now. We conceptualized this idea, and alongside doing various other things in the music space, we've been able to help a lot of independent artists to fund the EP that wouldn't exist without the help, to build the studio in their garage, to go on the tour, to upgrade the tour van—whatever it might be. So, yeah, that's been really our mission: to help artists to increase the lifetime value of their fans, but also just to give help and support. You can go and find technology out there—there's Kickstarter or Patreon; they give you a website—but at Rocket Fuel we hold people's hands. We help them. We get them set up. There's a lot more of a partnership than just a platform.

Michael: Cool. That's awesome. So what I'm hearing you say is that Rocket Fuel is a sort of crowdfunding platform with more personalization, more of a hands-on approach, where you partner with artists to help them to launch these campaigns, whether it's for an album or a tour or anything that they're looking to raise funds for, and increasing the lifetime value of their audience. I would love to hear a little bit more about the types of campaigns that you see working best, or maybe some examples. You mentioned a few different crowdfunding types of platforms, so I'm curious: Rocket Fuel—how does it compare exactly, and what do you think are some of the unique propositions from the platform that make an artist want to choose Rocket Fuel?

Andy: Yeah. We're very much looking for artists who want to progress, want to move forward—maybe those who might have tried using other platforms before but just found them, it hasn't fitted for some reason or another. So Rocket Fuel's very much about the tools, absolutely the tools, but it's also the training and the support from a team as well. That's where it is very different. We focus a lot on training, equipping people, preparing them not just practically but emotionally for how they can actually grow their audience. As an artist, it's not easy running a campaign. It's not easy being an artist. But if it's what you want to do, you need that help and support. So that's a huge differentiator. But in terms of a technical level, what Rocket Fuel can do is a lot of things that other platforms can do, but under one roof. So Rocket Fuel essentially works like Kickstarter or Indiegogo: you can run a crowdfunding campaign; you've got a deadline; you've got six weeks to raise the money for a new project. We can do that at Rocket Fuel. But then at the end of your campaign, rather than shutting up your shop and packing up, going home, you've got your online store that continues. So you've got an online store that switches into crowdfunding, or crowdfunding that switches into an online store. But then what you can also do is you can run memberships like you can on Patreon as well. And within the platform, there's lots of different functions and features. There's some really cool things that help you to funnel your audience, to help them to go deeper, to gamify the whole process. And it's very dynamic. So we've had artists use it purely just for crowdfunding. A lot of people say, “Well, I've got an immediate need. I need some help,” and “Andy seems like he can help us,” and we've done that with lots of artists. But there are other artists who've run their memberships through there. And there's artists like Philippa, who I mentioned, who I used to manage—we actually did over a hundred thousand pounds through the platform. So I can tell you firsthand that it achieved the aim of helping us to increase the lifetime value of fans. We made more money through Rocket Fuel than we would've done through stacking an online store with Kickstarter, with this, with that, and a tip jar over here and a hat being passed around virtually over there. So that's really what we're about: giving artists the ability to run campaigns in the way that suits them. Because not everyone wants to do a traditional crowdfunder, and not everyone wants to run memberships, but maybe you want one place that can enable you to do one, two, three, four, or five things, and that's what we've done with Rocket Fuel.

Michael: Cool. That sounds like a really helpful platform to bring everything under one roof. Specifically with the crowdfunding campaigns—I feel like that's something that I personally don't have a lot of experience running, but I know that quite a few artists in our community have had a lot of success, raising $50,000, $60,000. One of our artists just yesterday closed a campaign for $30,000. I would love to hear from your experience: what are some of the components—because it sounds like what you're saying is that the education and the training are part of what makes the platform special. It's not just like, “Here's a tool,” and figure out what you're going to do. You actually teach people how to use it, which is awesome. So I'd love to know some of the best practices as it relates to crowdfunding campaigns and what are some of the biggest mistakes that you see people making when they get started. And where do you recommend they start?

Andy: Well, in terms of the starting point, we've got a framework which we introduce all the artists to, which gives them an overview of what's involved within being an artist. I think a lot of people go into being a music artist because it's what they want to do, it's what they love, it's their passion, but they don't really have a plan. There's no business model. There's no understanding of how the components fit together. And then you end up with a lot of artists very discouraged because they have the talent, they've put the hard work in, and we've been fed this kind of lie in a way that hard work plus talent equals success. But that's not really how the world always works, to be honest. I'm very pro-talent and pro hard work—absolutely, you need those components—but you need a plan that's based in feasibility, not in fantasy. So we start by introducing artists to a framework we've developed called the Driving Seat. And this gives them an idea of the journey that they're on. And I think this helps them to put into context why funding is important and why things like increasing the lifetime value of customers is important. Because I think a lot of artists go about the journey in the wrong way. They get very consumed with trying to entertain the crowd, but they've not built community or worked out how to turn the crowd into community, and they've not worked out how to turn the community into core supporters. They basically don't have the funnel down. So one of the things we try and make sure is that artists understand the journey creatively, they understand the journey in terms of brand building, and they understand how the financials work as well. So that's where we start. And I can give you a quick whiz around that if you want, Michael. I even have cards here, and I can explain the whole thing in about three minutes.

Michael: Yeah, that sounds like a great place to start.

Andy: Okay, so I'm going to introduce you to the Driving Seat framework. There are three things we're going to unpack, and this is where we start with every artist before they get into the crowdfunding. Because people get lost in the deep end of things, and you need to start by making sure you're clear. The first thing we look at is the wheel. The wheel is your creative journey. You need to grab hold of the wheel and make sure that you're not a passenger in your journey. The next thing we look at is the road, and this is the road of building a brand—how to get from where you are now to where you want to be in terms of your audience. To get there, you're going to need fuel in the tank. This is where Rocket Fuel actually comes in. It's the third and final framework that we look at. So the first thing that we teach artists—I'll just whiz through these, because we're talking crowdfunding and career development here—the first thing is you need to write songs people want to hear. That's absolutely essential: you've got to write songs people connect with. You've got to find your lane sonically in terms of your sound. You don't want to be a copycat. A lot of artists, in my opinion, are trying to be master forgers rather than artists. They're trying to sound like someone else. It's like, no, that's not art—that's forgery. And forgery is clever, but art's much better. So find your own lane—so important. The next thing is style. People look before they listen, so you've got to have a brand. You've got to have a cool hairstyle—like me; I can't do a lot with my hair here, Michael. I'm trying really hard. Then it's the show. You've got to create immersive experiences online and offline as well. It's not good enough just to say, “I've made some content.” You've got to interact with people. You've got to make something immersive. You can't just do run-of-the-mill. Then it's the story. People are drawn in. You've got to win people's hearts and minds. That was the wrong way around, wasn't it—hearts and minds. I'm not very good at biology, as you can tell—but hearts and minds: your story. And then it's systems to manage your time, your team, and your tasks. So that's the wheel in a nutshell. They're all the things that you need to do creatively as an artist. And most serious artists have a lot of these components down. Of course there's always room for improvement, but that's the starting point. And then we go onto the road. This is where it starts to get interesting, because pretty much every artist that I speak to is stuck. They're going round and round the roundabout, or they're in the slow lane, or they've stalled. Or—I just picked my car up from the garage. I had an MOT, a kind of annual car check. I needed two new tires and a new coil spring, and I came back 500 pounds worse off. It's a dangerous and a difficult road being an artist. I completely understand that. So it starts with the plan. This is a framework we have called the Jigsaw. The Jigsaw is essentially a way we teach artists to put together a business plan if they've never done it before. They go through our nine puzzle pieces on the Jigsaw, and now they understand how a business works. The next thing is process. Your process determines your progress. We have a framework we take artists through called the Dashboard, and that helps you to understand the importance of process. I do a lot of business systemization consulting—outside of music, inside music—and it's all about process. It's about getting it all down, using your time well, not wasting your time and energy in inefficiency. And then it's your product. We teach a concept called the Five-Level Offering, and this fits in with Rocket Fuel: content, products, services, experiences, and subscriptions. So if you are overly reliant on one of those income streams—like you've just got content, but you have no products, no services, no experiences, no subscriptions—you're not going to be future-proof. If you are overly focused on experiences, but the content's maybe not bundled into products, again, you don't have a robust offering. So we teach artists to look at the Five-Level Offering. We then look at partners. We take people through an exercise called the Boardroom, thinking about who you want on your team—not just “I want a label.” It's like, okay, which label, and who do you know at that label? Who's going to go for a coffee with you, and who are you getting to know? You need to know the key people and then the companies, not just the categories. And then it's promo. We have a framework called the Marketing Map, which helps people to understand how to funnel, how to get people from spectators and turn them into superfans. But that doesn't happen in one sitting. People go from spectators to subscribers, and then from subscribers they might become supporters; then from supporters they might become superfans. And that's the heart of the five-circle funnel we teach. And then the final destination on the road is platform. Platform's going to look different from one artist to the next. It's selling out an arena for one artist; for another artist, it's quitting the day job; for someone else, it's releasing the project that they've spent five years procrastinating about. Everyone has a different destination. So we never tell anyone, “That dream's too big” or “That dream's too small.” Everyone's on their own journey, but we try and make sure people understand the path. And finally we look at the fuel and three principles that really bring this to life. First one: increase income streams. You want to be doing that. Second: improve earning trends—and to understand trends, you've got to measure them. And then finally: invite your customers—invite your fans—deeper. It's great having loads of people connecting on Instagram in the crowd, but really you want people at the merch table. You want people in your online store. You want people through Rocket Fuel or wherever you're trying to get them. You want a queue there, not just spectators. You need superfans. And so that's what the Driving Seat's all about. It's really helping artists to navigate their way through. It's quite a diagnostic tool, so we use it and say, “Hey, we've looked at the S’s on the wheel; we've looked at the P’s on the road. Where are you stuck?” And then people can usually identify and say, “Okay, yeah, I'm stuck here. I'm going around the cycle of product-promo, product-promo, product-promo, and I don't have any partners. No one's working with me. I don't have the expertise.” So what we try and make sure is you go back to the start of the road. Do you have a plan? “No, I don't have a plan.” Is this a hobby or a business? “Oh, it's a business.” Where's the plan? Would you invest in a company that had no business plan? “No, I wouldn't.” Why did you quit your job before you put a plan together? And then we look at the process. We make sure that the architecture is done before the building work. So it is quite a sophisticated but also very simple tool that we've developed to explain the journey that the artists are on. That is a very brief—okay, that was longer than three minutes. I'm sorry, Michael—but that's a brief introduction to the Driving Seat.

Michael: Wow. That is awesome. I'm really impressed by the frameworks and the process and the systems that you've managed to communicate—those different components that are needed for an artist to actually have a real business. Obviously there's a lot to unpack there. Maybe getting started, I would love to hear: where do you see most people miss the mark in terms of what's the biggest thing that often people are missing from that tool set you just shared? And what do you think is the biggest opportunity?

Andy: I think it's absolutely 100% in planning. Most artists don't have a plan. They have some ideas; they have a destination in mind, but there isn't a plan of how to get there. And it's difficult. It's not an easy thing to do. Some people will say, “What's the point in planning, because things are going to change?” But fail to plan, plan to fail. That's how I see it. I think there's a huge opportunity for artists who are willing to stop, to slow down, and think about, “Is my plan feasible?” A lot of people's plans are just fantasy: “I'd love to sell out Wembley; I'd love to do this; I'd love to do that.” It's a wish and a prayer, and that's okay—maybe that gets you out of bed in the morning—but to really put the hard yards in, you need a feasible plan. You need to be able to persuade other people, not just emotionally through telling them you have passion and singing amazing songs, but you need to get business people on your team—whether that's a record company or a manager or an investor. So you need both that emotional pitch and a logical pitch as well. And I think the logical pitch is where most artists sadly fall down, and they don't know how to do it. They've not had anyone help them with it. It's not sexy to write a business plan. I'd much rather spend a thousand bucks in the studio. I'd much rather spend a thousand bucks on a marketing program, or paying someone to increase my likes. But you've got to ask yourself the question: is it a hobby, or is it a business? And if it's a business, you need a business plan. You need something feasible. Plans don't have to be 50 pages long and boring. They could be whiteboards—visual. It could be video-based. But you've got to have a compelling pitch where all of the dragons, all of the sharks, are going to say, “Yeah, I'm investing.” That's what you need. And if you don't have that, you're making it really hard for yourself. So I think that's the thing. This is why at Rocket Fuel the first thing you have to do before you crowdfund is have a goal. You've got to put a pitch together. And the pitch is not to investors; the pitch is to your friends, family, fans, followers—maybe some financial backers. But that's why I love Rocket Fuel: it gives you that sense of, if I want to achieve something, I've got to articulate it. I've got to distill this down and make it really clear what it is. And if I can't do that, no one's going to come along and write you a big check to support you. They'll support you because they get behind your vision and they see that you are serious and dedicated. I'm always on the lookout for artists who want to put a plan together. I was fortunate in that my dad was a financial controller of a major corporation, so I grew up playing music and doing all the fun stuff, but my dad was always like, “Have you thought about your outgoings and your income? Have you planned this?” I've been really fortunate to have that kind of support. Most artists haven't grown up with that kind of support. They've been encouraged to pursue their passion, but they've not been encouraged or forced to pursue the plan. I think that's where a lot of people fall down. That's where so many artists go to the grave with their music still in them because they never sat down and wrote a plan. They'll drive 300 miles to go and play a festival for $50 or whatever, but they won't sit down for one day and write a plan. They won't spend hours crafting ideas and asking people to scrutinize them. And that's hard, because someone coming along saying, “Maybe your dream isn't going to pan out how you'd like,” but it's a reality check. I think that's what so many artists need. It's not what they want. It's not the thing they're going to say, “Hey, I want.” That's why there aren't many people selling it to them, because a lot of them will never buy it. They'll spend the money in the studio; they'll spend the money on the marketing; but they won't spend their time, attention, or any money on putting together a feasible plan.

Michael: Good stuff. So what I'm hearing you say is that this road trip analogy is really good. If you don't have a plan, it's like you have no destination that you want to get to. You need to know where you're going in the first place, where you're trying to get to. You need to be able to clarify it so you actually have a destination. Then from there, if you don't have a plan or a path to get there, if you don't have a map or GPS to keep you on track, then your likelihood of reaching that destination is extremely unlikely unless you have some kind of guidance or plan that helps get you there. A couple of questions that come up: I totally agree with the value of goal setting and creating a plan, then implementing on a plan. Also, depending on the plan, it might be a good plan or a bad plan. If you have a map that's sending you to the wrong place, or if you're not constructing the right map, then you might end up wasting a lot of time or energy. So I guess my next question would be around formulating that plan. What would your best advice be for an artist who understands it's a little bit like eating my broccoli—it's not something I'm going to enjoy as much as going to the studio—but I'm willing to do this because I care about building a sustainable career, but I'm trying to figure out where to start. What do you recommend they do when formulating a plan?

Andy: This is where our puzzle comes into place. The Jigsaw is a framework we've developed, and it's all around nine puzzle pieces. When it comes to a plan, a plan is not, “I will do this on day one, and then on day 10 I'll do this, day 100 I'll do this, day 1,000 I'll do that.” That's very rigid, and it never pans out in that way. To put together an effective plan, it has to have some give in it. It has to fit together and not just in a linear sense. It's not just an execution plan of “Today I'll do this; next week I'll do that.” It's not just a to-do list. A to-do list is good—I'm all for to-do lists—but that isn't a plan. So what we do is we take artists through the nine puzzle pieces. The place to start is in the middle, and the middle piece is mission. What do you want to achieve as an artist? The way that we do this, Michael, is we break it down into a whole range of different areas. We look at your personal mission: why were you born; what do you want to accomplish personally? Personal goals sometimes might be to prove someone wrong; it could be to make the world a better place because you grew up in a difficult place, or maybe you grew up in a great place and you want to help more people who grew up in a difficult place. We all have personal goals and aims. Then we look at creative goals and aims: what do you want to be remembered for as an artist in terms of what you brought to the world creatively? We look at business aims and goals, financials. We look at material goals. We look at vanity goals: what's going to determine success for you? Then we look at altruistic aims and goals: how do you want to change the world? So we take people quite deep. We don't just look at profit, power, prestige. We go into who are the people you want to help, what are the pains that you want to solve in the world, what's your purpose. So it starts with mission. I won't go through all the nine puzzle pieces here, because I know you want to keep it concise for your listeners, but the central bar of A-O-A is mission, offering, audience. These three things have to slot together. Sometimes artists are very clear on their mission—“What do you want to achieve? What are your aims?”—and they can list all of them and are very clear. But often artists are not that clear as well. Then we go to offering: what do you want to offer the world? “I've made this concept album; I've always played the guitar in this style.” There's something in me that I want to give to the world. That's great. Some people really come alive when it comes to offering but aren't sure on the mission. So we go back to the offering and say, “Who's the offering here to serve?” This is the audience. Sometimes people are super clear on their audience—sometimes that's where it all starts. The artist says, “I'm here to serve people who grew up in a broken family like I did, and my songs are about finding healing.” They might be 100% in tune with the audience, but they don't know what their mission is—yet they know who they're serving. The audience you want to serve—you've got to offer them things they want that they're going to buy. Maybe that is your mission: to do this. So what we do is make sure wherever there's clarity between mission, offering, and audience, we make sure those things fit together. The artist becomes really clear on “This is what I want to achieve; this is what I want to offer; and here's who it's for,” or any order of those three things. When there's that level of clarity, the plan forms. The action steps become much clearer. Otherwise, artists get lost—sometimes in the offering: “I want to make music; I want to play shows; I want to do this,” and then I'll write a list of “I want to do this and this and this.” That isn't a plan. The plan has to be clear in terms of mission, offering, and audience.

Michael: Awesome. So mission, offering, and audience—sort of like the who (who are you serving), the what (what is the offer), and the why (your purpose for what you're doing). And I guess the where and the how are the plan that forms as a result of getting clear on that outcome.

Andy: We go to the top of the puzzle: it's channels, resources, partners. And then we look at costs, activities—it's cost, income, activities. Those are the bottom. That's the whole nine pieces. The biggest misalignment of any of those things—we start with the central bar, making sure they fit together because if they don't fit, it's going to be messy. If your who, what, and why are not connected, it's a big mess. You end up with a lot of confusion, wasted time, wasted energy, wasted money. We always look at the pieces like, how does this fit to that? But the biggest misalignment often is mission doesn't align with activities. People say, “Andy, my goal is to play Wembley.” Great. Love it. Fantastic. Now let's look at your calendar. What are you actually doing with your hours each day? What are you doing with your hours each week? I'm a little bit old school in a way. I have to level with artists and say, “Look, if you wanted to be Olympic level, an elite athlete, would you just show up when you felt like it? Would you not get yourself a coach to try and get you to where you want to get to?” Do you think many people get to the Premier League or the NFL or the Olympics without a coach, without real painful discipline? No, they don't. So what about you in terms of getting to your goals, reaching your peak performance—are you willing to go through that? Most artists, sadly, are not willing to go through that level of discipline. Some of them think it's going to kill their creativity if they have to be disciplined. For a lot of people, maybe it's not sexy; it doesn't sell. People want the idea; they want the Hollywood thing of “Hey, sign up with my program, and next week you'll be like this guy who made a million bucks from not doing any work.” Great—well done him. But that's not how it generally works. Artists who get to the very top and stay there—it's relentless work ethic, incredible people helping them. But you need a relentless work ethic, and somewhere along the line someone has come along with a really good plan. You can wait for that person to come along, but for 99% of artists, that person will never come along. The person who needs to take responsibility for forging the plan, forging a way forward, is you—because no one's going to do it for you. Just because it happened for this artist in a Hollywood blockbuster, or just because it happened for someone else, doesn't mean it's going to happen for you. Just because you have the talent and you're going to do the hard work. I always encourage artists: when it comes to putting a plan together, you need to be able to pitch it to people. When you meet a manager, a label, an investor—whatever it might be—your pitch can't be, “Hey, I'm a sinking ship. I need a rescue. Will you help me? Will you throw me a—” That is not it. I get emails every day from people saying, “Hey, I'm looking for a manager.” No—you need to show, “I'm a vessel on a voyage. Here's the destination I'm heading. Do you want to jump on board?” I've never got on any mode of transport when I don't know where it's going. Yet so many artists are looking for help in the industry with no clear sense of direction, and it's a really uncompelling pitch. Sure, I want to help people, and I'll happily point people in the right direction if we can, but we can't jump on board with an artist—I couldn't manage an artist—unless they know where they're heading, where they're going. It's difficult. I totally understand it. It's a really tough industry, and there are lots of bad players out there—cowboys and con men—and lots of bad opportunities. A lot of artists will say, “Well, this person didn't have a business plan; this person just got signed.” You can guess and gamble—people win the lottery; I'm not disputing that. But there are people who succeed because of their plan and process, and they've got the product. Some people will always succeed because they knew where they were heading, they were focused and disciplined, and they had the talent. You get to choose: do you want to be a guesser and a gambler with the talent, or do you want to be a bit more organized and disciplined? It's not sexy for most artists who want to keep it fun and spontaneous. I totally respect that. If it kills the love for you by sitting down and doing a plan and crunching numbers and measuring KPIs, I get that—but it's needed if you want to turn a hobby into a career. If you want to turn your career into a brand, someone's got to take responsibility for it. If you don't do that—we all know artists who've ended up with people who haven't looked after them well. We all know artists who had the talent, got signed, and it didn't happen for them. I want to encourage artists not to be a passenger in their journey. That's what the Driving Seat's all about. You need to be behind the wheel. You need to put your foot down. It's no one else's responsibility to do that for you. You've got to do that, and then people will want to come on the journey with you.

Michael: Really well articulated. That makes a lot of sense. What I'm hearing you say, going back to that driving analogy: you need to have the clear destination; you need to know where you're going; and you need to be willing to put in the fuel, put in the work, to make it happen. If all you have is talent, it's like you have a really fancy-looking car—if it has no engine, then it's just going to sit there. It's not going to go anywhere. So you have to take responsibility; you have to take the wheel; you have to decide where am I going; and then you need to put your foot down on the gas.

Andy: Absolutely. And, of course, this is where Rocket Fuel helps artists who need that fuel in the tank. You need some help to get from where you are now to the next destination. That's 100% what we do. I'm pretty straight down the line, Michael, because I don't want artists coming to me saying, “Hey, Andy didn't do it all for me.” We are not looking for those kind of artists. We're looking for artists who want to partner with someone who will be honest with them and give them help, give them education and encouragement. We love encouraging artists. We love looking after artists. But we want to be real with people. This is not a walk in the park. It's an epic journey being an artist, and you need a vehicle to get there. That's what we've developed with the Driving Seat—it's just a way of thinking to help you understand the journey you're on.

Michael: Cool. Sounds like a very valuable, very needed framework. Andy, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today and sharing what feels like decades of experience at work in a very short amount of time. I appreciate what you've been doing. I appreciate the insights you shared for the community. For anyone listening or watching right now who is interested in learning more about Rocket Fuel and the frameworks and diving deeper, where can they go to take the next step?

Andy: Absolutely. I'll give you my email. This is the best way to get in touch if anyone would like help. We don't mass market. Rocket Fuel is kind of an invite platform. We invite artists we feel would be good to work with into it. So if people are interested to find out more about Rocket Fuel and the Driving Seat, they can drop me an email: andy@learnx.net, and I'd be really happy to share some resources with anyone who gets in touch around the Driving Seat, and point you in the direction of Rocket Fuel. You can have a look at Rocket Fuel at rocketfuelhq.com. But if you'd like access to any of the resources, just ping me an email—andy@learnx.net—and I'd be happy to share them with you.

Michael: Very cool. We'll link to the resources in the show notes for easy access. Andy, thanks again for taking the space to be here on the podcast today.

Andy: Thank you so much, Michael. Thanks for the invitation.

Michael: Yeah.