Michael Walker: Yeah. All right, I'm excited to be here today with my new friend, Libby Kallins. Libby has over eight years in artist development, marketing, and partnerships. She has helped build campaigns for both emerging and established artists. But very importantly, she's also come from a musical background herself, so she understands what it means to be an artist, and she's worked on the industry side of it as well. And she works at 444 Sounds, which helps artists connect with their communities, grow their fan base, and monetize their music successfully. I'm excited to have her on the podcast today to talk a little bit about some of the unique opportunities that you, as an independent artist, can use today to build a community. So Libby, thank you so much for taking time to be here today.

Libby Kallins: Thanks for having me, Michael. Excited to chat all things music, industry, artist, all that fun stuff.

Michael: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. So, kicking things off, would love to hear a little bit more about your background. You mentioned that you have an artist background, and I'm curious how you found yourself working with artists at 444 Sounds.

Libby: Yeah, so I've been with 444 Sounds relatively new still, about four months. And 444 Sounds is a management company with an artist services arm. So it's low commitment for artists that really need support, which I think is a really special place to be. I've come from the label side. Prior to that, my whole career was at independent labels and major labels, while simultaneously also kind of having an artist slash musical background. I started out as a musician all through college and through my years and all of that fun stuff.

But I started at Sony Music back as an intern, and as soon as I got in there on the radio promotion side, I was like, this is super cool. I'm not leaving. So I interned for years over at RCA Records. I was a part of the college marketing program at Sony, which is such a great foot in the door for kids that are trying to get into the industry, while also simultaneously having my rock band and fun things like that. And then I started at Arista full time on the radio team and quickly moved over to marketing.

I love the creative side of marketing. I love the hands-on part. I love the project management side of things, being really entrenched in the artist's everyday journey and building their project and building their story and trying to find that story and tell it. And then shortly after that, I moved over to Armada Music, which is an independent electronic label, just to kind of get on the independent side of things. I was always on the major label side through my youth, my first jump into the industry. And so I was working independently with independent artists on the electronic side, which was a super fun place to be for the last three years.

And then I dove over to management, just working closer and closer with the artists. I think that there's so much freedom artists have now to create and be in charge of their career. So working on this side of things, you really can help artists in any stage of their career with helping them build and have freedom and autonomy over where they put out their music, when they put out their music, what their project is, et cetera. So I think it's a really special place to be.

Michael: Hmm. Awesome. Yeah, I can imagine coming from a background working with major record labels to kind of transitioning to working with indie artists, you've been able to see both sides of the coin. So I'd love to hear your perspective on what are some of the biggest differences that you see right now that are unique opportunities for indie artists versus your previous work with record labels. And what would your advice be to a new artist who maybe is early on, and imagine that they have amazing music, but they're kind of deciding, what path do I want to go for? Do I want to try to pursue a record label relationship? Do I want to build independently? How do you recommend that they think about those two paths?

Libby: I think it depends what your goal is as an artist and also what your means are and what your resources are like. So if you're an independent artist that already has a bit of backing and budget for whatever reason that may be, then there really is... I would try to stay independent for as long as you can and just build your platform, build your fan base, whether that be on the live side or on the social side, and just cultivate that community as much as you possibly can before jumping into anything. And I mean, I think that's the same also if you don't have a budget, but building as much as you possibly can before taking that next step is so important.

And I also think it depends, like I said, it kind of depends on your goals. So for example, if you are an electronic artist making a specific subgenre of electronic music, then you know what, for sure that's a great idea to work with a smaller, independent label that really leans in on your niche and already has that community built, because it's kind of like a cosign and it just really helps entrench you into that community that you want to be a part of.

I think if you're more of a broad pop artist maybe, and you're still figuring out what your story is, you're just figuring out who your fans are, it's more important to take your time and find that fan base yourself. But of course, like I said, it depends on what your needs are. And if you need that backing, you feel like you really need that support and that opportunity presents itself to you, then yes, of course. It's always just so situational and it depends where you are in your career.

Michael: It makes sense. Yeah. So what I'm hearing you say is that really, like most things, it's gonna depend on you and your goals, your situation, but that often the starting point is going to be the same regardless of what your goal is, in that you should try to build it as much as possible on your own to something successful independently until you really have a need to have external help with growing it. Yeah.

Libby: And artists have so many resources on their own right now, more than they ever have. You can make your music in your bedroom and it can sound really good from your bedroom. So there cuts those kinds of fees. You can build your community behind a screen if you're someone that doesn't want to be out and about. You can do so much on your own. It just depends what story you're trying to tell, what kind of artist you're trying to be, because that's the other thing I think about a lot too, is a lot of artists don't want to be... I mean, we know this, a lot of artists don't feel like sitting behind their phones, posting on social media. I don't blame them at all.

They just made a whole album. They're trying to figure out who they are as an artist, who they're trying to be, what they're trying to say. And I think that artist-y brain kind of inherently, you don't want to have to figure out how to say that on social media. It's a really odd thing to have to do. It doesn't come naturally for everyone. So I think if that's not something you're super comfortable with, then maybe it's the live side of things, and that's where you're gonna build your fan base and that's where you're gonna build your community.

But I think that, and I'm veering off the question, but I think that finding one place to really focus on and build is a great starting ground for an artist, aside from the music of course. Maybe that's TikTok. Maybe that's on Discord. Maybe that's playing local shows and really building in your local community, whatever that starting point is. Obviously all of those moving parts together will always take you to the next level, but I think that it can be really overwhelming for artists starting to feel like you have to do everything all at once and touch everything. So kind of figuring out that starting place is a great place, and then it also will help you align with and figure out what your goals are.

Michael: Hmm. Got it. Yeah, that makes sense. So what I'm hearing you say is that really, a lot of this depends on your goals and where naturally you want to build your roots, build your community. And it's sort of like if you're trying to plant a tree, which is your music career, in a bunch of different places, then trying to fertilize and nurture it in all these different places, especially if it's not a place you like to go to, it's like you have to go on a trip just to make it to the place where you're gonna put fertilizer on it. Instead, kind of think through where do you actually naturally find yourself spending your space and time, and start building a community and building your roots, whether that's live or in a particular platform, using that as a way to focus so you can have those relationships when you first get started.

Libby: Definitely.

Michael: Awesome. So let's say that somebody has taken that step and they've decided that... Well, here's a question actually. How does someone choose the right platform for them? Because obviously, if you're looking for a sunrise and you're going west, then you're never gonna find the sunrise. So how does an artist kind of take that advice and figure out where are the opportunities for them to plant their seeds while also remaining true to themselves?

Libby: I think it's a lot of trial and error. I think it's about not being afraid to start on a new platform and be okay with starting from scratch and starting from zero to kind of A/B test also. It's seeing where your fans connect the most. So maybe you are posting all over Instagram and TikTok, but you're just seeing most connection on TikTok. Okay, lean into TikTok. What more can we do on TikTok? Should you be going live on TikTok? Should we be doing giveaways? We should be leaning into that platform if that's where it's naturally connecting. So kind of see where things connect the most.

I also think, for example, some of the older artists I've noticed, they're more comfortable on Instagram than TikTok. Totally cool. If you want to put more energy into that, let's put more energy into that. I think that's one thing that alleviates the pressure, is not feeling like you have to go super, super hard on every single one. Of course that is ideal, but I just think there's so much pressure on artists, so it's really leaning into what works for you best.

Or, for example, we work with this awesome band called Empire Fall, and a lot of their fan base really hangs out on Discord, and there'll be a lot of fan discourse on Discord and that's where they can build the community. And so because the fans naturally are chatting on there, the artists will just really lean in on that platform. And that's where we'll do things like Q&As. That's where we'll do things like sharing links early and really pushing the conversation because it naturally is just building in that platform. And I think all platforms have really good integrations of community-building centers, like Instagram broadcasts, Discord, et cetera. So there's ways to lean into the communities on each one, whatever works best for you. Maybe it's YouTube also, and there's ways to build out those kinds of conversations.

So it's just kind of trial and error, and you find what you're comfortable with. And also I think, if you're an artist, think about what platform you like to use already. Maybe not even posting, but where do you go to be online? Then that's probably where you should kickstart things and really lean into, because you're already comfortable there. You already understand kind of how it works in some capacity if you're already a user.

Michael: Hmm. Super helpful. Cool. So, one thing I want to just throw the hat in the ring is, we have a software as a service called Street Team that we released recently that's essentially like a community builder. And the elevator pitch for it is that it's sort of like if Discord and Facebook Groups and Patreon had a baby. Instead of Mark Zuckerberg owning the baby, you own the fan relationships, you own the data. So for anyone that's looking to build a platform, it's free to use. You can find it at streetteam.fm.

But what I'm hearing you say is that ultimately it depends a lot on what you feel already comfortable with, that you're familiar with, where you're going to, and that you'd recommend trial and error, that sometimes it's hard to know until you actually go and you try these different platforms to see what's resonating and what's working. So that analogy of kind of planting a seed, sort of like you scatter out the seeds in different places and then if you notice, oh wow, the tree is really sprouting over here in this place, then okay, that's a good sign to go spend more time fertilizing that and engaging more there.

Libby: And also another thing is, don't be too precious, I think. Once again, as artists, you want everything you put out to be very representative of you. You want it to be perfect. You're probably a perfectionist in some capacity. But I think on so many of these social platforms, you can try things, especially TikTok. You can just try stuff and then it goes away and people forget about it. Think about how much media we consume every single day. People aren't overly focused on it.

That said, I get it. When you're at a certain level in your career and everything is super mega curated, but I'm talking about developing artists that are really just starting things out. Just try stuff and then also maybe something that you didn't expect to work will work, and maybe it's something that is more authentic to you. Because I also think that when you're applying so much pressure on yourself to have perfect, polished content and everything being so streamlined, a lot of times it lacks that authenticity. And authenticity is really what breaks through the noise, because music itself, I would hope, the music that you're making is authentic to you. So who you're trying to showcase and what you're trying to portray should also feel authentic. And that really only comes across the more comfortable you get with trying things.

Michael: Mm. Awesome. That's great advice. Yeah, it is kind of funny how much we overthink, especially early on, how many people are gonna care, when really no one cares yet and you're just starting out, and that's the perfect time to explore. I feel like I've heard a lot of quotes around just the concept that nobody thinks about you as much as you do. And literally that is kind of comforting to think about.

Libby: In every way. It's true.

Michael: Mm-hmm. A hundred percent. Okay, cool. So let's imagine that an artist is here right now and they've started to do this experimentation and they are doing their best to not be perfectionists and they're just putting out content, and they're starting to see that there are a few platforms where it seems like, oh, there's little sprouts happening and they're growing. I'm curious what you'd recommend for helping artists to develop deeper relationships with the fans that they're starting to connect with on those platforms. How do they turn someone from a new listener and someone that is initially engaged to actually more of a supporter and more of a dedicated fan and a real relationship?

Libby: I think it's about making them feel included in their creative process. So maybe that looks like, for example, on Instagram, making a broadcast channel and sending demos through to those special fans that are tuning in. Maybe it's sending a couple pieces of artwork saying, help me select my next cover art. I just did this shoot, which one do you like better? And just making them feel like they're really involved in the process, making them feel like they're the first to know. Maybe you're going on tour, it hasn't been announced yet, but you're letting them know first.

So it's building those communities also, of course, email lists, SMS, things like that where they can be the first to know everything, and they're included in that process. I think, especially for independent artists and smaller artists, that's a great way to do it. Having them just be as involved as they can be. And also listening, kind of listening to what they like. So maybe you posted a cover of a song and it performs super well and people are commenting, oh, you should cover this next. Hell yeah, give it a try. Make them feel like they're seen or they're heard.

Other things that we've done in the past: maybe a record goes viral and we'll clip together some of those viral fan videos and make it a Spotify Canvas for a week so the fans feel super seen and they get to be a part of that song. Just finding special ways for them to be included.

Michael: Mm. Super smart. Yeah, it is kind of like what we just talked about with nobody really thinks about yourself as much as you, but it seems like what you're saying is a big part of it is applying that same logic to your fans and also recognizing that what they resonate with most is themselves and their voice being seen and being heard. Everybody has a need for appreciation, to be recognized. And so if you can shine the spotlight on your fans or have their voice be heard in terms of what songs you're playing or covering, the requests that they make, that's gonna be a helpful practice to nurture those relationships, by actually making it more about them and building that relationship so that you're co-creating together.

Libby: Yeah, just making them always feel included. I worked with a really cool alt-pop artist a few years ago, UPSAHL, and she was great at fan interactions. And this also depends what you're comfortable with as an artist, but I remember when she was on tour in different major cities, she would select one fan, and I don't remember exactly the logistics of how we went about it, how we would select the fan, but she would select one fan in her tour cities and hand-deliver them merch day of show. We would get their house address and she would go. And it was, I'm sure, a little awkward for her, I can imagine, but it was so special for the fans, and the fans knew that that was something that they could be a part of. So it incentivized more of them to enter.

And I'm sure there was a tie-in with a presave. So for example, if you enter this contest, you have to enter by presaving, and then it builds the presaves on her project, et cetera. Little things like that. That was actually a pretty wild thing for her to do, but it was awesome and super cool for the fans.

Another example with that too is, if you're going to have a release party around your project, or you're going to have a show when your single drops, give a couple free tickets to your fans that presave, things like that. And maybe you only have five super fans, but those super fans are dedicated and they should get those perks. And then they'll tell their friends how special it was and how awesome it was, and then they'll tell their friends, et cetera. The ripple effect.

Michael: Mm. Awesome. So just to reiterate that part, you said that she basically did a contest or giveaway where people could enter, and then she would actually go to their house and hand-deliver free merch, merchandise. Wow, that's so cool.

Libby: In her tour cities, yeah. It was a really cool incentive. And it was cool how comfy she was with the fans, and it really helped build dedicated, loyal fans.

Michael: Yeah, I mean, if you have that experience where you enter this thing and one of the artists that you've... even if you're a relatively new fan, but you've been listening to the music and you like it, and then they come to your house and hand-deliver you a T-shirt, that's very cool. You're definitely gonna remember that artist. And when you're thinking about all of your musical relationships, that's cool.

So in general, one strategy that you've found that's really helpful is doing giveaways or incentives or doing things where you just reward and you honor your fans who deserve to be recognized. And so doing things like giving out merch bundles, having people sign up for a contest, these are ways to gain an email list as well as provide value to the fans, and there is a ripple effect where people refer other fans as well.

Curious if you have any recommendations around... It seems like one of the core mechanics of virality and just music growing in general is word-of-mouth connections and referrals and people sharing it with other people. I'm curious if you have any other strategies or tactics or things that you see working really well right now in terms of helping to spread the word organically through word of mouth.

Libby: Through word of mouth. Well, I think that there's ways of spreading the word that maybe aren't as organic, that we definitely are a part of. There are so many different kinds of campaigns you can do digitally. I think fan pages are huge right now, and I think that they really help spread the word. And I think user-generated content campaigns really help spread the word, where it's seeding out information that fans haven't heard of yet, or just seeding out the music to as many different corners as you possibly can with campaigns like that.

But I think that's more on the paid side. I think that kind of stuff makes a big difference because it also takes the weight off of the artists to constantly be updating their fans and constantly be posting.

On the word-of-mouth side, this is more a fun thing of it all. I think getting entrenched in a culture is so important. I think it also depends... everything depends. But for example, I'm gonna talk about electronic a little bit. I think that there are so many corners of community in the electronic community, and I'm sure that is in any space. But over, you know, since 2021, whenever people were back outside and the influx of pop-ups started happening, it created such a community and it created word of mouth.

Because maybe you're not the main artist on the pop-up, maybe you're opening for that pop-up, and you now have a tie to that artist, just like what you would if you're going on tour. But it's an intimate, if-you-know-you-know kind of thing. So you feel like you're the first to know, once again. Making people feel like they're the first to something is so valuable, because everyone wants to be the first to something to show their friends, oh, I just found this artist, I'm the first, that kind of thing.

So I think that that has been such a cool tool for word of mouth, essentially, just because the in-person-ness has made in-person so important if you're an artist that's capable of that. And I think in the electronic scene, we've seen it so much with so many pop-ups happening and so many parties happening and community building via that. Artists just being involved. Maybe you're not even playing, maybe you're just alongside the artist. But then when that artist photo or that mix is posted on socials after, oh, who's that guy standing next to the DJ? He's involved, he's a DJ too, and it's who's in your circle kind of thing.

It helps further build that out, and it also makes people feel like they're involved, because they know, oh, that person's friends with this DJ. I saw him when he was DJing and he was standing beside him. Oh, now I'm a fan. I'm listening to his music. Oh, I found this first. It's the found-first kind of fallacy again. So I think that's one fun angle. I love the in-person of it all.

Michael: Hmm. Awesome. Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of good lessons in there. So, a couple things that I'm hearing you say are, one, being able to lean into the angle of your fans as the first people that discovered it is just a healthy thing in general that tends to give people status. And so if you can kind of talk about how grateful you are that they're the first people and that they're some of the first initial founding members, that's going to resonate with the right fans who want to be that early adopter.

But then also just the power of in-person connective experiences. What I hear you say is pop-up shows where it's an in-crowd, if you know about it, you know, but it's intimate and it's something that's not widely shared, and so it kind of creates that sense of exclusivity slash word of mouth where you feel special by sharing it. And I think that could apply as well to online spaces too, where people are coming together. And in person... it could be in person kind of like how we're in person right now, although it's true, we're live, we're together, but we're not in person yet until the metaverse becomes a thing.

But yeah, that seems like a great angle to focus on, just pockets of bringing people together and collaborating.

Libby: I was just gonna say, one other thought off of that too is, if you're doing a show like that out and about, and it's just so common in New York too because everyone's walking around all the time, there's so many people walking by and they see a big crowd, they want to know what's going on. So that also is just another little tidbit of it to add on to the word of mouth.

Michael: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it does seem like people, when they can see something cool is happening, they're curious and they'll want to peek in on it.

Cool. So, curious if you've seen anything on the digital front. We were just talking about in-person and live experiences. What do you think about the world that's kind of opening up with things like Twitch and live streaming for musicians? I also know Fortnite is doing some interesting things with concerts and virtual experiences. What is your perspective on virtual events and that as a tool for artists to connect with their fans as well?

Libby: I think it's super useful if you also, as an artist, are into those platforms. So yeah, I think it's super useful, but once again, you have to also be passionate about the platform. So if you are a streamer yourself or a gamer and you are active on Twitch as an artist, then yeah, let's do it. That's probably where some of your community is. But if you've never used the platform before, maybe you shouldn't be doing it on there. Maybe you should just do a 20-minute live on TikTok instead.

But I think that all those kinds of platforms are super, super useful. We have, I mentioned Empire Fall earlier, I'll mention them again. We're doing an EP listening party on a similar platform like that. This one's called Melo Manic, where fans can sign up and we all meet at a certain time on this platform. We're gonna listen to the EP together. They're gonna talk about the EP in the chat room and kind of have a conversation with your fans. I think you can do it on a variety of different platforms. That's something we could even do within Discord, where most of their fans are.

I think just having all of these spaces is so useful, and they should be leaned into depending where... and the platform just depends on where your fans are, and also how dedicated your fans are and how willing they are to jump to a new platform. Say that's not a platform you usually interact with them on, but you want to get them on there. If they're dedicated and you can get a couple hundred fans to hop over there with you, yeah, let's do it. Let's expand. But yeah, I think those things are super useful.

Michael: Hmm. Awesome. Yep. So what I'm hearing you say is that for sure digital spaces are something to explore, and like the previous advice, you'd want to make sure that it's a platform that you resonate with, that you personally either are using yourself or that you resonate with when you start playing around with it and scattering the seeds.

And also it's important to make sure that if it's a new platform that people aren't familiar with, that you also have an expectation that either there's probably gonna be some drop-off of getting people to it, or you need to have a really good incentive or a reason why for them to go to this different platform. So that's something to factor in when you're doing this type of strategy, thinking through where your fans are already at and is there a benefit to moving them to a different platform versus using the existing platform.

Along that line of thinking, I know you mentioned email earlier, email lists and text message lists. Could you share a little bit about, do you think that that's an important asset for artists to focus on building, and if so, how does that tie in with the different social platforms if they do have an audience on TikTok or Instagram, for example?

Libby: Yeah, I mean, I think email and text is so important just because it's one place that you can directly hit your fans right in their inbox, and it removes a barrier to entry. So on Instagram, you have to go on your Instagram app, you have to go look at the story, you have to then consciously interact with that story. Whereas if you're getting something in your inbox as a fan, if I'm getting a text message from an artist, even if I don't have that artist's number saved, I'm still gonna read it. And maybe I'll click on it, but I'm definitely seeing it because it's right into my personal inbox.

And so I think it's just so useful for announcements of any kind. I always work with my artists to build out a text blast the week of their single release. Maybe it's a presave on Monday and then an announcement on Friday of the single, linking out the record, linking out the music video. Same with email. I just think it's the best way to really let people know what's going on and keep them in the loop. And of course you're gonna get unsubscribers here and there, but it's such a useful tool.

I think especially if you're a touring artist, it's so easy to build those lists, because as you go on tour and as people pop up to the merch table, they can just sign up. And same with presave. You have people presave your record, they have to put in their email, they have to put in their phone number. Now they're automatically in that list and you can really keep them in the loop of things.

And it's good just for sharing content, whether that is the music or whether that's the music video, or maybe it's two weeks after release and you decided to do an acoustic video to bring people back. You can nudge them again on email: hey, I just did an acoustic video, here it is. Oh, I just did a production breakdown, here it is. So it's just a way to get all those tentpole moments that of course you're posting about back in their face. And of course in moderation. We don't want to annoy the fans. We don't want to lose all the subscribers, but keep them in the loop.

Michael: A hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, if they subscribe, they subscribe for a reason, and if they don't, they can unsubscribe.

Okay, awesome. So that's definitely a major part of the Street Team platform, that it's an email list builder and a text message list builder. So it's great that I didn't put you up to talking about all this stuff. You're not sponsoring the Street Team platform, but it is a great reason why the platform exists.

Libby, you were gonna say something?

Libby: One thing I was gonna mention too, all of these things I mentioned, talking about platforms and all of that and talking about the music, one thing I did want to talk about, because I just think it's so important and integral to the start of your artist journey, is the branding and creative and deeply understanding who you are as an artist before taking all those steps.

That doesn't negate what I've said about trial and error on platforms. I still think that's super important. But I think when artists are ready, when artists finish their project, they're just ready to release. They just want to kind of get it out because it feels so true to them in that moment and they want to honor that era of their writing. But I think it's so important for artists to take a beat, assess what story they're trying to tell, if they're trying to tell a story, what message they're trying to get across, if they're trying to get a message across, and kind of get everything together in a nice pretty box before pressing start and going across all these platforms and really, really going.

Because that creative side, if you deeply understand what you're trying to say, then others will. But if you don't, then I think that's how things kind of get sporadic. And I think that's where we see so often so many independent artists and projects just kind of... I mean, don't get me wrong, singles are so important, but there's a single here, there's a single here, there's a single here, and what ties them all together?

So I think that that's such an important thing to think about before you do your batch of four singles, before you kind of make a conscious decision, before jumping into things. So I did just want to chat on that.

Michael: Yeah. Oh, that's super helpful advice. So what I'm hearing you say is that, even if early on it's going to require testing and spreading the seeds out and seeing where it lands, even before you do that, you kind of want to reflect on the seeds that you're spreading in the first place and be like, what's the purpose of this? What's my story? What's the narrative? What's the purpose? And by having some of that clarity, it's going to significantly increase the odds that those seeds that you're spreading actually do germinate and actually do take hold.

Libby: Yeah, exactly. Because if you can't tell your story, how is somebody else supposed to understand it, and why are they gonna hop on for the ride?

Michael: Oh, that's great. I get the feeling that this could be a whole other episode, going deep into storytelling and how someone kind of gets in touch with that. Maybe...

Libby: It's true. I'm very passionate about that side of things because I think that that is the root of why an artist is an artist. Obviously the music, but why are you making music? And it feels like silly questions sometimes when you sit with an artist and you ask those questions, because it feels obvious. But I think it's so important to actually have those conversations with yourself, with your friends, with your manager, with your team, whoever that may be. Because then it allows everybody to deeply understand, and that also allows us to help honor your vision and figure out what might work best for you.

And even aside from that too, once that's sorted out, sitting down and kind of deciding down to the little things of what are the three colors that you really want to focus on, what kind of aesthetic are we going for, and all those kinds of little things. It feels so obvious, but I think it's just so important to actively talk about it as an artist and really actively think about it before pressing go, just so you at least, if you do feel like you're falling off track, you can bring yourself back and say, okay, this is what I actually wanted to say. Maybe that's changed, because people change, artists change, the story changes and new music comes, and we are just people going through the different eras of life, artists are with the stories they're telling. But it's always good to go back to that root and be like, oh, okay, this is where I started. So let's see, maybe this shifts. It's just an important starting point.

Michael: Hmm. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, it's probably the most important question or the most important thing in the first place: understanding why it matters, what's your purpose, what's your message. And I can understand what you're saying in terms of figuring that out or sitting with that and reflecting on it, even if it's not perfect and you're discovering it, just asking the question.

Libby: It's all an evolution.

Michael: Yeah.

Libby: Yeah.

Michael: Awesome. Well, Libby, this has been a lot of fun. Again, I get the feeling that that last thread, we could pull that and go down some really interesting roads, but we'll save it for maybe a future conversation for sure. So thank you so much for taking the space to be on the podcast today and to share some of your insights and experience from your journey so far.

And for any artist who is listening to us right now, who would like to connect with you or the organization and explore working together, what's the best place for them to go to connect?

Libby: Yeah, so if you are interested in 444 Sounds and the services we offer, I think we're 444sounds.com, or Instagram is just 444 Sounds, but it's spelled out with the letters. And then me personally, Libby Wave across socials, like .wav, like the file. And I'm always happy to chat music stuff, chat artist stuff, all that fun stuff. This has been such a pleasure, Michael. Thank you.

Michael: Absolutely. Yeah, thanks for being here. And like always, we'll put all the links in the show notes for easy access and look forward to talking again sometime soon.

Libby: Likewise. Yeah.