Michael Walker: Yeah. All right. So I'm really excited to be here today with my new friend, Dr. Chelsey Green. Dr. Chelsey Green is a number one Billboard-charting violinist and recording artist, associate professor at Berklee College of Music, and Chair of the Recording Academy's Board of Trustees. She's the first Black woman and youngest person ever to lead the GRAMMYs' governing body.

We also have a mutual friend in Ari Welkom, so if Ari endorsed her, then I know that she's awesome. I'm really excited to have her on the podcast today to share a little bit more about her story and how a classically trained violinist ends up fronting a genre-blending band with a number one Billboard record.

So, Chelsey, thank you for taking the time to be on the podcast today.

Dr. Chelsey Green: Thanks so much for having me, Michael. I'm excited to be here.

Michael: Absolutely. To kick things off, I would love to hear you share your story. How did you go from being classically trained as a violinist to having a number one Billboard record?

Dr. Green: I think for me, growing up, music was always just so much fun. I am so blessed and fortunate to have grown up in a family of music lovers, but also really incredible musicians who were passionate about studying one form of music, but also just celebrating all of what music was.

When I was very young, it was decided for me that I would play the violin, and at four years old, I started taking violin lessons with a dear teacher who was a member of the Houston Ballet Opera Orchestra.

For Christmas, she would take me into the pit with her during The Nutcracker season. During intermission, before the show, and after the show, she would introduce me to all the dancers and the production team. She would let me sit next to the podium, and I met all the musicians. I just really was able to see music is so much more than what we read on the page.

Growing up playing in church, it was really palpable to feel what happens when music moves the spirit. So music has always been something that I have enjoyed doing to share with audiences. The classical training part gets a little tough, but we can talk about that later.

Michael: Awesome. I definitely can relate to your story.

I mean, you started at four years old playing violin. My parents started me at about four and a half playing piano classically.

Dr. Green: Oh, okay.

Michael: Similarly to you, I wasn't necessarily... I think most four-year-olds aren't just super stoked to be sitting down—

Dr. Green: Exactly.

Michael: ...kind of sit still and play, but it becomes such a blessing later on.

Dr. Green: Yeah.

Michael: Cool. So, the Recording Academy. I'm curious to hear from someone who really has the inside scoop. Could you share what the Recording Academy is the other 364 days a year beyond the telecast?

Dr. Green: I'm so glad you asked that question. I'm not sure how many people in the world—I know a lot of industry professionals and creators may know the membership aspect of it—but it is a nonprofit membership organization.

The GRAMMY Awards is an incredible production where we get to celebrate peers. We get to celebrate each other through this very iconic award that's become the gold industry standard of musical awards.

But also, we get to celebrate each other through advocacy efforts, professional development, music education, a very robust Producers & Engineers Wing, and the Songwriters & Composers Wing. These are ways that we can uplift creators year-round.

There's support financially and medically through MusiCares. We also have an affiliate in the GRAMMY Museum and the Latin Recording Academy.

So it's a very large system and organization of resources, opportunity, connection, and community for creators everywhere.

Michael: Cool. It really is like an entity. You're like an entity. It really is like a community.

Dr. Green: A massive organization, yes.

Michael: Awesome. So I'm curious, how do the GRAMMY voting and nominations work from the inside out? And what would you say is the biggest myth that artists believe about how that process works?

Dr. Green: I'm not even sure if it's just artists. I feel like the public may think there's some secret person that just says, "This award goes to this person."

But it's truly not. It is a membership built on voting members, professional members, and GRAMMY U members. It's nearly 30,000 members that make up the heart of this organization. Within that, there are nearly 15,000 voting members that have had the credits and experience to vote on the awards.

There's nearly 115 categories now, and you can be qualified to vote in certain categories based on the credits you have and the experience you have in the recording industry.

Alternatively, if your credits aren't necessarily in one genre, or if you do a lot of session work, or you produce or arrange in various categories, you can select up to 10 categories and also vote in the general fields on the ballot.

Anyone who's interested in submitting their work for consideration submits through the online entry process. It's then opened to the voting members for that first round of voting, and from that first round of voting, the nominees are selected for the final round of voting.

Michael: Awesome. Cool. So, for anyone that's watching this podcast, which is mostly independent artists and musicians—

Dr. Green: Oh, great.

Michael: What does the process look like for them to become a voting member, and why should they apply for it?

Dr. Green: That's fantastic. It would really be great for you to connect with someone that you may know who's already a Recording Academy member.

You can also log on to recordingacademy.com/membership and find all of the requirements and details to become a member.

You do not have to be recommended by a member of the organization to become a member. If you have colleagues or other industry professionals that you work with who would give you a recommendation, you just need two recommendations, and you would need to provide a certain amount of recording credits over a certain amount of time. All of that is outlined on our website.

Also, it's beyond voting for the awards. As I mentioned earlier, it really is joining a community—a community of support, a community of resources, and a way to convene with other independent artists, creators, producers, et cetera. People who span the industry and show up in so many different ways to help you see what's possible for sustaining your career.

That's really where our passion is.

Michael: Awesome. You mentioned part of the organization is MusiCares.

Dr. Green: Yes.

Michael: Can you share a little bit more about MusiCares and how someone could either contribute to be a part of it? Like Modern Musician, for example, if we wanted to help raise funds for MusiCares—

Dr. Green: Of course.

Michael: —or for an artist who might be listening to this right now who's really in need. Who is it made for?

Dr. Green: My goodness, it's made for creators. It's made for musicians—those who earn their income and sustain their lives through music.

You can tap in with MusiCares. Please go to their website and discover the types of resources that they provide. They provide financial aid, medical aid, and support through other types of services, including mental health services and addiction support services.

They have been transformative for so many creators. Really, if you feel like you don't know whether or not they would be able to provide the specific support that you need, it is worth going to the site. It's worth asking. It's worth connecting.

Of course, we are always grateful for generous donations, partnerships, and sponsorships to help this effort. The number of musicians and creators that organization has been able to support has been transformative to the work that we do.

The numbers continue to grow because the need is growing. So, please tap in with MusiCares however you can.

Michael: Awesome. Well, maybe off the show, we can either connect a little bit more, or I would love to figure out how an organization or a company like mine can collaborate with—

Dr. Green: MusiCares.

Would love to do that. Absolutely.

Michael: Awesome. All right. So, the GRAMMYs. How many years have the GRAMMYs been... How many seasons have they been going for? And I'm curious, what makes this season different from the previous seasons?

Dr. Green: Well, we're approaching our 69th Awards, so this has been happening a long, long time. This year is particularly exciting.

We're walking into a new partnership with Disney and ABC, so this will be our first broadcast on ABC. We're working with Disney to consider some really exciting streaming programming that may be available around GRAMMY Week or otherwise.

So I'm really excited about jumping into a new opportunity to show more about not only the GRAMMYs, but the Recording Academy in general—what we do, who we are, and to engage audiences, to really highlight all of what we do across the organization.

We have some really new categories that people may have heard about this season coming up. The pop category is growing. There's so many things. I don't want to leave out anything, so you've got to tune in. You have to see what the new categories look like.

But really, we're just doing everything we can to help celebrate creators, celebrate certain communities, and really expand our inclusion and diversity efforts as well.

Michael: That is so awesome. Really, really cool about ABC, Disney, and that collaboration as well.

Dr. Green: Yeah.

Michael: I might be a little bit biased, but I live about 10 minutes away from Disney World here in Orlando—

Dr. Green: Okay.

Michael: —where our Modern Music Studios is based. Probably my favorite show of the tour that we just ended with my band, Paradise Fears, was at Disney Springs at the House of Blues here in Orlando. It was just an incredible venue.

Disney Springs is amazing, and my three kids got to come out to the show. So again, I'm a little bit biased to it, but that's exciting, though—a big collaboration.

Congratulations on another incredible season.

One thing that you're making history on right now is that you're the first Black woman and youngest Chair ever.

Dr. Green: Mm-hmm.

Michael: So I'm curious what that process has been like for you. What does that represent, and how do you make sure that you're not the last?

Dr. Green: That's a great question. I think that this appointment really speaks to where we are as a community right now, where we are as an organization to recognize what leadership can look like and really what the power of convening communities looks like.

I'm so honored and deeply grateful to be able to serve in this capacity when I'm not an A-list celebrity. I'm not someone who's in the headlines every day. But I am someone who is an independent artist. I'm an educator. I'm in this work, like so many other people in our organization are, living this life every day, doing what we can to sustain the careers that we have.

To be able to bring that voice and that reality into this space and have this voice at the table, to me, is so powerful as we consider not our experience right now, but the Academy we're building for decades to come, for generations to come.

That is what I wake up thinking about every day. What are we doing today that's going to serve the next generation of leaders, the next generation of musicians?

Technology is rapidly changing. Access is rapidly changing. The market, the industry itself, is saturated in a way that is very different than it was even 10 years ago or 15 years ago.

So knowing that rate of progression, what are we doing to manage it? How are we enabling our members to have the resources they need to keep up and to plan ahead?

I'm super grateful, super grateful for the opportunity to serve in this capacity, to serve my community, and to advocate for creators who are just like me every day, out here doing the best they can to manage their careers, while also being very collaborative with management and with leaders who are aware of the needs of our creators as well.

Michael: So good. Yeah, it definitely feels like we're entering the age of the creator, or the builders, from a standpoint of... You mentioned technology is moving so fast—

Dr. Green: Yeah.

Michael: —and now we have AI tools as well.

Dr. Green: Mm-hmm.

Michael: Which kind of leads to the next question around AI as a technology, especially in the music industry. It feels like there's both huge potential and promise and excitement, but also a lot of fear and understandable tightness around these models and how we use AI. Is it a threat?

I'd love to hear your perspective on AI, both as a creative tool and where the line is between using AI as a tool for artists and AI as a threat.

Dr. Green: This is the question. I feel like everyone has the same question right now.

I'll be frank and just say people stealing intellectual property is not a new problem. This is something that we can track back as far as we can think of people existing, right?

We also have been in situations where technology and ways that we've enhanced production equipment and other tools that we utilize for everyday recording enhance what we do.

Again, we are not unfamiliar with utilizing technology for good, for aiding our work.

The line to me is when we have Top 10 Billboard charts where 40% of the Top 10 are AI creations. These are not real people. These are not real creators. It's a prompt that was set up and trained on an actual artist, an actual human being who is not getting credited, who is not being paid, who is in no way acknowledged for what has now become something that's taken a place of prominence in streaming, on the charts, but also in money.

They're getting a lot of money for these streams and for how it's showing up on charts and in playlists, et cetera.

The scary part for me, which is what the Academy is doing a lot of advocacy on right now—and we have been for years—is advocating on the Hill to get regulations in place about AI and what it can actually do, what the restrictions should be on intellectual property, on training on human artists, on copying artists.

I've even seen several unfortunate Instagram videos or TikTok videos where creators say, "This person uploaded an exact copy of my song on YouTube, and then YouTube came and took my original song off, saying it was a copy of the AI song."

That is maddening. You know what I mean?

To know that they took that to court, and to know that the court did not overturn it—that the court actually said it stands—

Michael: Wow.

Dr. Green: —is absolutely mind-blowing.

That's where we are, and that's where we really have to create some serious boundaries around what this AI technology will be able to do. Otherwise, we won't have any reins on what we're able to produce as creators, as human beings.

How good is a copyright if it doesn't hold up in court?

Michael: Hmm. That is mind-boggling. I hadn't heard that, but it recreated the same one, and YouTube literally claimed that the original couldn't exist because of the AI.

That's wild.

Dr. Green: Yes. Yes.

Michael: You know, I recently went to a website that's designed where you put in the name of your band or your music, and it tells you if you've been uploaded into any of the streaming data sources.

I did it, and our band had like 100-plus records that had been uploaded. I'll admit, I'm a futurist and a technologist, and I get very excited when I think about the possibilities and the good that can come from AI. So I think I have a little bit of a bias or a blind spot toward things like this, and I could use rounding out through conversations like this to understand all the different perspectives.

But I will say, when I saw that, there was part of me that was like, "Whoa. I didn't give permission to this, and whoa, how do I really feel about this?"

So what I'm hearing you say is that what you're advocating for, what the organization is advocating for, is more transparency around regulation and making sure that the original works aren't being used without permission and that we safely navigate using this technology.

Do you think that there's a use case for AI tools that, if done... Is there an ethical path that you think looks like something that feels better to get behind? Or do you think that there should just be no AI music at all? It should only be music that's created by hand, for example?

Dr. Green: I think, and this is just right now, I feel like we're going to be in a totally different place even in six months. But if there were a way that especially the streaming services could be very transparent and say, "This is a completely AI-generated playlist," so that the listeners know, "Okay, this is AI music. These are human artists."

I heard one label is calling it "traditional artists." So apparently that's what a human creator is now for some labels. I'm fascinated by that.

Michael: Traditional artists.

Dr. Green: Traditional artists.

Michael: Or it's called old art.

Dr. Green: Exactly. Like, what? Exactly.

So I think if there's a way that we could really have the transparency... Or even if they do, which I would hate that we would get to this place, but there have been several AI platforms that have scrubbed catalogs and actually released new projects as the artist—not the artist, but utilizing their sound, their band, their style—to create an entirely new album, and then the album is released.

That sort of stuff, to me, there should be a trigger that goes to the artist, like, "Is this your music?"

Michael: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Green: "Is this your... Did you upload this as yourself? Click here. Click here. Whatever. Sign off on this," so that we're not having to wake up and get a text from a friend saying, "Hey, I didn't know you released an album today."

"I didn't."

"Well, go to Spotify and see your new album."

To me, that sort of stuff shouldn't be allowed. And if someone is interested in doing that, go to the artist and say, "I'm willing to pay this much for us to collaborate on a project in some way where it could do da, da, da, da, da."

If the artist accepts that, and if the artist approves that that's what they want to do with their sound and their likeness, then move forward with that.

But there's a culture that I think social media inherently supports of the quick fix, the quick satisfaction, and that's becoming attractive to those that make a lot of money on music. They're saying you can use way fewer resources, spend much less money, and get a product that is, quote unquote, "publicly acceptable" that they can sell.

To me, that diminishes the value of what people are toiling with for years. Some people work on records for years, and they finally release it. Then in this culture, it's, "Oh, great. You released an 18-song project. What's next? When are you touring? When is the next album?"

You're like, "I just released this. Can you all appreciate this eight-year process that I just went through?"

So I think there's a way that they can coexist, but there has to be transparency. There has to be a different level of investment, like real money, in what tech is doing versus what the human artist is capable of and able to do.

I think there just needs to be much more partnership and collaboration in the process.

Personally, I'm okay. I'm still on the no-AI team. That's just my very personal note, with all hats off—Chelsey, just the person and the musician.

Growing up in classical music, growing up around jazz musicians, and studying jazz for a while, there's something about live music that you just cannot ever simulate with AI. It's just a moment. It's a magic. There's a majesty around that coming together in real time, and even audiences experiencing that.

So for me, I just want everyone to remember what music can do. Just remember that it is a moving experience from human to human.

Michael: Mm. That makes a lot of sense.

I think there is something... Or what comes to mind is something sacred.

Dr. Green: Yes.

Michael: Sacred about music and community, when we come together and we channel something greater than ourselves through the music with each other.

So are there any practical steps that an independent artist can take right now if they're watching this and they're like, "Well, I personally don't feel okay with my likeness being used for AI training and these kinds of purposes."

What can independent artists do right now to protect their work and their voice?

Dr. Green: Wish I had a straight answer.

Unfortunately, even before AI was really big, I remember during COVID I made a video, and I posted myself playing violin. I did a dedication to George Floyd, and I utilized a YouTube instrumental track. I had created a melody around it, and I did this tribute.

The next week, I saw a song on streaming platforms that was me playing this song with someone doing poetry on top of it. They credited me, which is why it popped up on my artist profile, but I never gave permission for that to be utilized.

I'm just saying that to say things are being looked at. People are stripping audio from social media, from YouTube, from records. It feels like we're in this space where everything is up for grabs.

What is possible right now is just doing your best to own your masters, own your publishing, own all the parts of the recording as much as you can, and keep track of the metadata.

Keep track of where it is, what studios it's at, whose computers it's on, just so that you have the most knowledge of the track record—literally, of the steps of the project.

Because at the very least, you would need to be able to recall that to prove your ownership of it.

The old-school copyright of, like, get it down, record it, send it to yourself—all of those things—just to make sure that you at least have a date sealed in of when you produced this original work.

That's the best we can do right now.

Sadly, we're still working toward the legislation to make these regulations something that would be recognized in the law. My urgency is that this needs to happen ASAP, because the longer we wait, the more progressive the technology becomes, and we're playing catch-up at this point.

I'm speaking to the artist when I speak to myself: don't let it stop you from creating. I know that for me, it paralyzes me. Like, "Oof, well, I don't want to upload new music because I'm a little nervous."

But at the same time, that shouldn't restrict your creative process.

Michael: Hmm. Yeah. That's so interesting.

It does feel like there's sort of a remix culture that we're in right now.

Dr. Green: Yeah.

Michael: You mentioned social media. It seems like there are a lot of people taking things and then remixing them, doing reaction videos, taking things and adding extra layers to them.

I wonder what a solution to that would look like.

I know Google has a Content ID system, but apparently it doesn't always work perfectly based on what you shared earlier, where they gave incorrect credit to the wrong one.

Dr. Green: Yeah. Yes.

Michael: Maybe if we could, like you're advocating for, have more transparency and regulation around making sure that there's clear ownership of those original pieces of work.

The other thing that comes up—and this is an interesting philosophical question—is original source for owning something, or copyright.

All of us are sort of inspired by each other.

Dr. Green: Mm-hmm.

Michael: I'm sure you were inspired by your favorite artists growing up.

Dr. Green: Of course.

Michael: And I was inspired too. Then how do we kind of quantify original source for some of those things?

But it does seem like there's a pretty clear... Like you mentioned, when you get it recorded, you have a timestamp, you have the proof. That seems like a fair way to objectively look at it and give someone credit for that type of original source.

Dr. Green: That would be, to me, the baseline. Like, at least just give credit to the original creator.

And I know that this is something that social media has had to tackle significantly because of the TikTok dances, and who starts it, and how that becomes part of the artist's image and what the artist is doing. The labels are using some of that promotional push, and there has not been credit given to the original creators on some occasions.

So again, it's something that we can go back to Chuck Berry and say the same thing, Little Richard, and say the same thing. These are not new problems. It's just new technology that makes the same issue a little more difficult to manage.

But it's also just the same thing of, well, what is going to be the new rule? And will we all follow it?

So I think the one thing I try to do, because my dad even just saw one of my shows pop up on YouTube—not a clip, but the entire show of me and my band performing back in May.

It was clearly in my contract with the client that the whole show would not be broadcast, live streamed, or recorded. But it wasn't the client. It was just someone that came in the audience and set up a very sophisticated three-angle camera capture and decided to post it on YouTube.

And it's not just on YouTube ad-free. I'm looking at one song, and then I have to see an ad about skincare. So clearly they're running it for monetization with no permissions.

I went to the creator and I was like, "Hey, we never talked about this. Can I get the video?"

It was in my Dropbox within minutes. So clearly there was no problem with them sending me the content, but there seems to be a feeling that I can post anything from anybody at any time, and it's not a problem.

So it's something that I think we're really going to have to figure out how to regulate, and then what will be the consistency of making sure that there's actually follow-through on the repercussions of that.

Michael: Hmm. Makes sense. Yeah, it's almost like one of those issues where the same technology that's causing the issue might be able to help solve it if used appropriately.

Dr. Green: Absolutely. To me, it would be so easy for AI in the song titles to say, "As originally heard by," "As originally created by."

You know the song that you're copying, so just like those karaoke packs: "This is da-da-da as originally recorded by Celine Dion."

You know, it's very plain, so that would be great if we could get there.

Michael: Yeah. That makes sense.

I'd almost imagine it, and I'm assuming that there's actually probably quite a few companies that are working on this right now, but maybe there's not a global standard, and there's not clear regulation on it.

But the ability to tag music bytes... I know Google Content ID and YouTube Content ID tries to do something like this. But to be able to basically determine this is the original rights owner, and therefore they have permission. They can decide what gets shown, what doesn't get shown.

It seems like there's at least some progress in there, and for sure needs to be more now that we're entering this age of not just, like you mentioned, the previous era of something being used without your permission, but now it's your likeness and AI generations from who you are.

What a wild time to be a creator.

Moving on to another very important topic. With your music, MusiCares, and advocacy work, I'm curious, what's a problem that you see that's facing working musicians that most fans never see?

Dr. Green: That's a great question.

I think a lot of independent artists sometimes don't feel they have the same distribution support. So, like, getting their product out in a way that it can have industry buzz beyond uploading it to platforms, or uploading it to their own Patreon, or some other way that they're connecting with their communities directly.

Sometimes the larger labels or some other areas have more marketing push. They have more publicity around really communicating the message of who the artist is, what the music is, and really that push of promotion.

And I think some independent artists would really appreciate being able to say, "Okay, I'm happy to do all the work on the recording and getting exactly what I want on the vinyl, but I need you to help me reach beyond maybe my 800 subscribers, or my 1,200 subscribers, or my whatever amount of Instagram followers."

And I always say it's nice now to be able to have the autonomy to kind of be your own label. You can push your music as long as you want.

There are projects that I have had streaming for years, literally over a decade, that I know are brand new to people, to millions and billions of people that have never heard my music.

So I can really be waking up every day and posting the same song on my Instagram if I really wanted to, because it's still going to be new to somebody. The algorithm is going to send it to someone new, and we're in a world where you can really create your own algorithm.

So I would say that's why entities like the Recording Academy are really helpful, because you're connecting with creators that may not be in your everyday lane, but they have the same issues and the same problems.

So you all can come together to talk about what's worked for you, what's not worked for you, and strategies—ways that you can continue to grow your profile beyond having to do the physical labor of saying, "Okay, well, now we have to do an 85-city tour because we have to go to each market and make sure we can get this place and this place."

Sometimes money doesn't make that happen. Resources don't always make that happen.

So whatever we can do to kind of help ourselves market in a very saturated, very overly saturated time, I think that's what a lot of independent artists would really appreciate help with.

Michael: Awesome. Well, not to be too self-serving, but that's why we exist with Modern Musician and our software platform, Street Team, is to help solve that gap for independent artists to be able to communicate with their fans directly—

Dr. Green: That's good.

Michael: —and build an authentic relationship.

So hearing you share that as well, knowing how strong of a community that you've built with the GRAMMYs and the artists, makes me feel good to know that we're focused on solving the right issue.

So along those lines, you having access to this community, and what a gift for these artists to not just have to go at it alone and try to figure everything out and spend tens of thousands of hours making every mistake themselves to learn, but actually be able to tap into the collective wisdom of the community.

I'm curious, what do you say is one of the biggest mistakes that you see artists make when it comes to building a sustainable career, and how do they overcome it?

Dr. Green: Ooh. I mean, that's a tough question, Michael. You're hitting me with the tough questions.

You know, I don't... Saying that things are a mistake is tough for me.

I have a philosophy that we should have no regrets in life, because it discounts the person we were at the moment we made the decision. It is impossible for us to have hindsight before we make a decision, right?

Michael: Mm-hmm. That's so good. I appreciate that perspective, and I feel like that's a great way to wrap up our conversation today: the philosophy that we're all doing the best that we can with what we know at the time of doing it.

It reminds me of one of my favorite prayers, the Serenity Prayer. Having the courage to do the things that are scary, the wisdom to know the difference between the things that you can control and the things that you can't, essentially.

And I really like that perspective that you just shared of, you know, there is no such thing as mistakes.

Dr. Green: Yeah.

Michael: They're all lessons that we're learning from. In many cases, it's literally working out in your best favor because you had to take that action to learn what didn't work so you can move forward.

It's beautiful.

Dr. Green: Absolutely.

Michael: To wrap things up here too, I have an alarm that goes off every morning at 11:45 that says, "You're gonna die someday."

It sounds a little bit morbid or intense, but I've actually found it really, really inspiring because it's a good reminder that, you know, if we're lucky enough to die a natural death, we're gonna have this experience someday where we say goodbye to everything that we've built and sort of makes it clear what's really important and what's not.

So just a friendly reminder that we're both gonna die someday. For anyone listening to this right now, make the most out of the time that we have here.

Spend it doing, being who you are, and saying what you feel, because, you know, the people who mind don't matter and the people who matter don't mind.

Sorry, I'm just pulling all the Dr. Seuss quotes now.

Dr. Green: No, no. I mean, it's a real... It's super real.

And, you know, I would say for those that may find that to be a little heavy, I think another way you could look at it is if you've had the blessed opportunity to wake up this morning in your right mind, your limbs are working, your eyes work, your heart works, your ears are working—even if you can't see what's happening next, and I mean that literally or figuratively—you have an opportunity.

A new day is a new opportunity for you to invest in someone else, invest in yourself, invest in your family.

A lot of people ask me, "Well, Chelsey, what do you think success is now? You've done this and you've done that."

And I said, "Honestly, success is waking up with joy in your heart. With a peaceful mind knowing that you're doing the best you can with what you have, and you're giving to the world in a way that God's designed you to move through life."

So whatever you feel your assignment is, or where you feel most passionate about leaning into it, every day is a new opportunity to lean in a little bit more.

And I always say, if you want muscles, you can't look at the muscles and say, "Grow." You gotta work. You gotta lift a weight. You gotta do something to help build that muscle.

So dig in and see what you can do to build your legacy.

Michael: That's so beautiful. That was a great way to wrap up our podcast today.

Well, Chelsey, thanks again so much for taking the time to be here and sharing some of the lessons that you've learned, the stories that'll hopefully help inspire the next generation of independent artists.

For anyone that's watching this right now and they would like to dive deeper or connect more, where can people go to learn more from you and follow The Green Project?

Dr. Green: Please do join me, connect with me. I'm on Instagram @drchelseagreen, D-R-C-H-E-L-S-E-Y-G-R-E-E-N.

I don't really log on Facebook anymore, but we still do have a Facebook page, Chelsey Green and The Green Project. Again, that's C-H-E-L-S-E-Y.

And my website is chelseagreen.com.

Michael: All right. Beautiful.

Well, Chelsey, thanks again for being on the Modern Musician podcast today, and I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day.

Dr. Green: Thank you so much for having me. It's been such a joy. Thank you, Michael.

Michael: Yeah. All right.