Michael: Yeah, here we go. All right. I'm excited to be here with my new friend, Cathy Pellow. So Cathy founded a record label called Sargent House, which is an internationally respected record label that's championed innovative artists for over 20 years. She has built a reputation as one of the music industry's leading voices in artist development, helping musicians grow sustainable careers while preserving their creative vision.

And she's also the founder of Riverwood Arts, where she advises artists and creative businesses on long-term career strategy, leadership, and independent success. So I'm really excited to have her on the podcast today to talk a little bit about her experience over the past several decades, seeing how things have evolved over time. And, you know, I was telling her backstage, anyone that is in this industry for over 20 years, I think is someone that clearly enjoys what they're doing, is passionate about it, and has also proven the value of what they offer.

So it's great to have you on the podcast. Looking forward to having a conversation about your experience and where things are at right now.

Cathy: Thanks for having me.

Michael: Absolutely. So, yeah, maybe just to kick things off, I would love to hear a little bit about your story of creating the record label and, you know, what made you decide that you wanted to start one in the first place?

Cathy: Sure. It's a funny story. I owned a music video production company, and I was a music video commissioner for the major labels. And I had a music television show in Los Angeles, and through the show, it was all about wanting to promote great directors and bands that weren't heard. So it was much more indie and non-signed, or just bands under the radar that I wanted to profile and feature.

And through that, I just started falling in love with bands that were—they weren't managed. They had terrible deals or they weren't signed, and I just started helping them. So it sort of, you know, with no intention of starting a label or anything. I had a management background. I managed directors, writers, producers, all film, and now had this production company and was making this music television show called "Refuse TV."

And I stumbled upon RX Bandits, who was the first artist that I said—You know, they asked me for their help to try to get out from a record deal they were in. And so I got them off the record deal, and part of the terms was that they had to self-release their record. So I said, "Why not? Let's do it. I'll do it with you. You know, I'll—Let's do it." And it worked out really well, so it sort of became this accidental discovery. Wow, it works really great when you have complete control with the artist to put out a record. So I continued to start to manage bands while still having my production company.

And I liked weird, eccentric music. You know, I liked music that wasn't in the mainstream. A lot of very sort of proggy math rock, you know, sort of just stuff majors weren't gonna sign. And even indie labels, the deals back then were just so bad. You know? It was like, "We'll give you zero money and no support, but we're gonna take everything."

So I just said, "This is silly. I'm gonna just... Why not I do it? You know, if, you know, let's be partners and we'll start putting out the records, and we'll help make, grow your career." So that's how Sargent House started, was really this sort of combined thing where it was we'd—I managed and I would put out your record if it was appropriate, or I'd put it on another label if that's what you wanted.

Whatever it was, whatever was best for the artist. And it just sort of grew to where Sargent House really just became such a respected and reputable and, you know, good label that, you know, I really sort of only started managing artists that were, you know, on Sargent House. Then, you know, I mean, it's been 20 years of great records, really. You know, we've done—we always do one-record deals, two-record deals at the most.

Everything was—everything's really geared toward very artist-centric, you know, very, very much in service of the artist has always been our motto. It's not really... You know, again, we were talking earlier about the music industry's changed so much, yet it's still the same. There's just different players and there's just different, different vibes.

But—

Michael: Hmm...

Cathy: The one thing that's really, you know, obviously the huge impact has been the social media and its evolution. It started out as, like, an actual really good ally for independent music because it leveled the playing field a bit. You know, if you were creative, then you could finally reach people.

You could finally, you know, be seen and heard past buying radio play. So that was great. And then, you know, and then of course, just greed as everything, you know, starts to take over and it just became now—everything is pay to play, you know? If you wanna get, if you wanna get... You know, everything has just become pay to play regardless of whether you're indie or not, you know?

And it still, just like back then, is whoever's the most creative wins, you know? And now—but now the creativity extends into how you put yourself out into the world, which is extremely frustrating for some artists because that's not what they signed up for. It's like, "I like to make music. I don't wanna promote myself. I don't wanna, you know, do dances and stuff." And I'm on their side. I agree. It's awful.

And then I see people who do incredibly clever things that have absolutely served to get their music into a lot more spaces, and I applaud them. You know, it's like it is an art in itself to master. And I think it's finding the balance, you know, and/or acknowledging if you don't have that capability or that's just not your thing, is the whole social media or content or coming up with clever sort of campaigns and ways to do things.

I say seek help. Like, some of the best assets today are, you know... I worked with the band Deafheaven for many years, and, like, George, the singer, he has such an interesting aesthetic and a way to present his band. And when you can find a person, which happens to be his brother, Liam, who now captures them and, like, you know, creates these videos and content that is so perfectly aligned with the artist, it really is a representation—it is as if they're making their own—you know, they are making their own content and have control over it.

But it's extremely advantageous versus a band who, like, just puts up the same JPEG of a flyer of a show, you know, of a tour over and over again. That's, you know... I mean, you know, this is like beating a dead horse, but it is... Social media is definitely something you have to contend with, and you have to figure out how to best crack it for yourself.

But at the root of everything, it's still always, is your music good? 'Cause if your music's good, it only takes a spark, you know? It's like it travels if it's good, you know? But again, the algorithms have switched things up, and it's frustrating, really frustrating.

And it's also really frustrating that, you know, just like what's happening in the country, it's like the billionaires are taking over the music industry.

You know, they've bought everything. They're buying all the publishing companies. They're buying all the distributors. They're buying the infrastructure that music runs on, and that's a new thing, and I think is a precarious thing because it is going to so homogenize and sort of, you know, undemocratize music because they can just elevate what is in their best interest and not care about the rest, you know?

Michael: Mm.

Cathy: And when there's nothing independent left, it's kind of hard. You know? It's like if the only thing there is to eat is fast food, you're stuck eating fast food, you know? So that's, you know, that's a bummer. But, but again, it's cyclical and I've seen really—I've seen doomsday vibes in the music industry before, and it always pulls itself out.

So I still believe. I still believe we can, we can be victorious. You know, you just have to, you just have to go for it.

Michael: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. So what I'm hearing you say is that, you know, in decades of being in the industry, many things are new and have evolved, but also, like, underlying it's like the same, it's the same thing just in different forms.

Cathy: Over and over again. You know, it's just like first it was you can't get on the radio unless you have billionaires paying for you to get on the radio. You can't get any exposure. You know, and then for that brief moment in time, you know, MySpace and social media came along and it was like—

Michael: Mm.

Cathy: Wow, this is free and people are finding out about me, and this is a great way to kind of build a community and for people to, you know, to expand. And then again, you know, it got ruined and greed took over, and now it's like, you know, if you don't take ads, you don't get in the—everything just becomes pay to play, which, you know, again, is so frustrating.

Another thing that's gotten... You know, is just undeniable, especially in the kind of music that I represent and enjoy, is touring was the way you built a true fan base. You know, you really did earn it. You know, it was like you're going out just like a politician, you know, you're canvassing is what touring was.

You're playing for people who then become avid fans, and you really build a core. That whole process has been removed, you know. It's like people—I see a generation of kids who, like, touring is like, "Oh, we can't afford to tour." It's like, no one could afford to tour back when you—

Michael: Afford.

Cathy: Like, nobody would... People were sleeping on fans' floors and this, that, and the other. But it's undeniable. Like, it also was, you know, you could get a hotel room for 40 bucks. You cannot get that anymore. We used to... You know, bands would go out on tour and use, like, Hotwire and be able to get, you know, hotel rooms that night for 100 bucks.

Now you're in the middle of nowhere and the cheapest you can find is $200 a bed.

Michael: Mm.

Cathy: So it's really become difficult for this next generation of artists to go the traditional route, which was to earn it, you know, step by step touring. It's become out of reach and unrealistic. And also people themselves, I feel post-COVID, they don't go out like they used to.

People aren't going to see live music at a venue or a bar. They'll go to a festival, like, once or twice a year, but they're not going out and consuming music or alcohol the way they used to.

Michael: Mm-hmm.

Cathy: So that's a difference, which again, you know, you just have to be creative and you have to say, "Okay, if those are the circumstances, evolve with them."

Michael: Hmm.

Cathy: Put on unique events yourself, you know? Build community is always at the center of it all. It's like, start local and build outward, you know?

Michael: Hmm.

Cathy: I think the internet has made a lot of younger people feel like they have to conquer the world overnight—

Michael: Mm.

Cathy: Instead of, hey, start small and let it grow, you know?

Michael: Hmm. Hmm. That's great. Yeah, I mean, there's a bunch of little pockets of wisdom in there to unpack. So, the thing that you just shared around... What I'm hearing you say is that, one, the tendency, especially in the world of social media and the internet, is you're feeling like you need to conquer the world or, you know, find something—

Cathy: Right.

Michael: Outside of yourself to go viral, when really the way that you build a community is usually internally. You know, you do it through starting locally or starting from within, and starting to build that grassroots connection, and then it can start to expand from the roots.

Cathy: Yeah.

Michael: So that's really interesting.

And also, what I'm hearing you say is, like, as a general trend, you know, it's been decades, but it's still kind of the same, the same story and different characters. Different characters, same story. Same story. It reminds me of an analogy. It's one of my favorite analogies for describing, like, change and transformation, is that it's sort of like we're all surfers, and there's, like, these waves that happen.

Cathy: Mm-hmm.

Michael: And these waves are these new technologies. Like, back in the space was—or back in the day—

Cathy: Yeah...

Michael: It was MySpace for a moment. And there was this—

Cathy: Yeah...

Michael: Wave, and if you were savvy, and if you were quick and adaptable and could swim along with it, then you could catch this wave—

Cathy: Yeah...

Michael: And get momentum in the moment.

But afterwards, you know, if you're trying to, like, catch up to a wave that's already passed, then it doesn't really work as well. So it takes a certain degree of a willingness to sort of face the unknown or get a sense of, like, what's coming. You know, what's the wave that's currently starting to, you know, to come so we can swim along with it?

And so it makes sense that over time, you know, the people with the resources and wealth and money to invest, you know, are chasing, you know, some of these waves that are bigger waves that have been proven out. But there's always that new wave that's coming that, if you're a scrappy, independent artist—

Cathy: Yeah.

Michael: You're creative—

Cathy: You can still—

Michael: You can still capture that wave. Yeah.

Cathy: And, you know, the most important advice I could say is don't keep waiting for a big wave.

Michael: Hmm.

Cathy: Yeah. Ride the little ones. You ride the little ones, and it teaches you how to handle when the big one comes. Yeah. And I think that that's another thing I've seen.

You know, I now consult young artists that are getting, like, huge, fat, big, major label deals, like, at the age of 20, you know, that are coming out of this, like, internet thing. And it's a completely different dynamic than, you know, the artists that I work with at Sargent House, where they're all like, they write their own music.

They, you know, it's very—You know, it's old rock band style, you know? There's no—

Michael: Hmm...

Cathy: 16 producers on a song, et cetera. None of them are on major labels, nor do they want to be, you know, because they know that's not the right place for them.

And then there's the other side, which is, like, you know, this younger, where it's like, oh, they have a song, and it blew up on TikTok, and now they're at Lollapalooza, and, you know, like...

Michael: Hmm.

Cathy: So I've been—It's been interesting because I've been advising those artists, and what I tell them is really different than what I would tell a four-piece rock band on the journey, you know, on what the actual course is. So there is no, there is no one-size-fits-all in music. You know?

Everything is very nuanced and everything is very, very much about who are your listeners, who are the people who will appreciate what you're doing. Don't try, you know, it's, it's like you don't need to try to convert everyone because not everyone will come in. So really enjoy, even if it's a small room, that room being full, you know?

Michael: Mm.

Cathy: Versus thinking you have to be an arena. You don't. Some of the artists that I know who don't need to work, like—where music is their only job, are much more in the middle class of music because they've done it the long, steady way, and they actually can rely on if they go... Like the RX Bandits, they can rely that they can go out on tour, they will play 1,000-cap rooms, they will be full, they will make a very good, you know, they will enjoy themselves, and they've done it for 25 years, you know?

And then there's the people who, like, "Oh, you have that big thing," and you sell out, and then the next year no one cares about you.

Michael: Mm.

Cathy: So there's different journeys. You have to decide which one you wanna be on, you know?

Michael: That is really interesting.

Cathy: And don't compare yourself. You know? Like, you can't sit there and be like, "Oh, you know, why aren't I as big as this?"

And it's like, that's not even the same genre of music that you're doing. You know? That it's completely unrelated. It's, it's like if you're a comedian and you're wondering, you know, why you aren't getting the Academy Award-winning roles, it's like 'cause you're not in those movies.

Michael: Right. That makes a lot of sense.

Cathy: Yeah.

Michael: You know, my mind likes to think in metaphors, and one metaphor that describes what I'm hearing you describe right now of, you basically, there's no size-fits-all or not like a one-size-fits-all approach, and people are different. And so your criteria for what is success, you know, can and it should look different based on who you are and not comparing yourself to someone else.

Yeah. And it's kind of like the difference between planting bamboo or planting, like, a grandfather tree, where bamboo—

Cathy: Mm-hmm.

Michael: Is gonna shoot up really fast, and it's—

Cathy: Mm-hmm.

Michael: Like crazy how fast it grows, but it's fairly shallow and it's like it's not gonna stick around for long, so it might, you know, get uprooted pretty quickly versus maybe a longer-term approach of building—

Cathy: An oak tree.

Michael: These roots. Yeah. The oak tree, and it's starting to build up and blossom over time, and over time it starts to bear fruit. But it is like a more sturdy—

Cathy: Yeah...

Michael: Foundation. And it's—

Cathy: Yeah...

Michael: Maybe not right or wrong, there's just difference, different types—

Cathy: Yeah...

Michael: Of trees. I, I—

Cathy: I specialize in oak trees, but I advise all the, like, all the bamboo bands as well.

But, but you know, and it—and again, it is interesting and, and a lot... You know, I find, and I'll just be candid, you know, some of the younger, you know, artists that I am advising, this is a stepping stone for them. They're, they're not trying to be an oak tree in the music industry.

Michael: Mm-hmm.

Cathy: They wanna use it to become an actor.

Like, "Oh, you know, I'm 20 and I'm good looking and I can do these big tours, but my ultimate goal is actually entertainment." You know, it is more—

Michael: Sure...

Cathy: Whereas a band like Russian Circles, who I've managed for 20 years and put out seven records for, they're oak trees. They will—

Michael: Mm-hmm.

Cathy: There is no, "We wanna be actors or we wanna..."

It is... They will always be musicians. Music relates, everything they do will be, you know, from that branches of that tree. And again, they have such an, such an admirable career 'cause they've just—they're on their ninth album, which comes out in August, and they have this steady, steady, consistent, every record is fantastic.

You know, there's no like, "Oh, this is their hit record. This is their whatever." It's a nope, it's just a new chapter in the symphony they've been building. It's like another—

Michael: Mm-hmm.

Cathy: Step. They're the quintessential oak tree.

Michael: Mm-hmm.

Cathy: And—

Michael: Sounds like—

Cathy: A good—

Michael: Band name... They're—

Cathy: What's interesting about them is, as individuals too, they don't, they aren't looking at what everyone else is doing and comparing themselves and, and feeling like, "Ooh, me, me, me."

And I think that's part of the magic of why they're where they are, is—

Michael: Mm...

Cathy: They've surpassed people that used to be the bands they opened for, and, but, you know, and they don't care if someone that opened for them is now bigger than them. They're, they're, they're like, "That's all good." And I think a lot of what you get is what you give out.

Like, you do receive the energy you put out into the world. So if you're always jealous and bitter and, "How come them, not me?" It does affect you versus being, you know, being positive and, and happy for others around you's success, which also just brings up your whole genre. If a band that's like you has success, it helps you, whether you wanna believe it or not, you know?

It, it's shining—

Michael: Mm...

Cathy: A light on what you're doing as well.

Michael: Mm. Yeah. That's so true.

Cathy: Which a lot of people forget, you know? It's... I think the internet has made a lot of people, like, too competitive or just, you know, the people who win the internet game are the ones that, like, make the—You know, create a perception, and it's not always real, you know?

98% is fake. A lot of them, like, I mean, there's a lot of artists that are, like, using trauma, 'cause they're like, "Ooh, I'm so traumatized." And victimhood—

Michael: Wow...

Cathy: Is, like, being monetized and—

Michael: Mm...

Cathy: Which is wild, you know? 'Cause again, it's, it's always been that way. It just has a different name, you know?

Michael: Mm-hmm.

Cathy: But it's—

Michael: Yeah...

Cathy: It's wild. But it's become, you know, like, you know, if you want attention, bask in some kind of victimhood, and then everyone feels sorry for you, and—

Michael: Mm...

Cathy: Your stuff spreads and—

Michael: Yeah. That's a pretty delicate one, isn't it? Yeah. It sucks. 'Cause—

Cathy: I don't like it.

Michael: Yeah. I mean, I can relate to that.

As someone who... I mean, when I notice there's, like, a part of me that's feeling, like, pity for myself or, like, or that, like, I'm just like, "Okay. Come on, dude."

Cathy: Mm-hmm.

Michael: "Like, let that go. Like, that's not serving you." And I just feel like gratitude... Like, there's—You can never run out of things to be grateful for.

You can also never run out of things to not be grateful for. So it's just, you just, you have to decide, you know, how you show up and—

Cathy: Which one you're looking for. If you wanna—

Michael: Exactly...

Cathy: Look for all the things that are going wrong, it's a lot easier than trying to find the, you know, good in what's happening.

Michael: Sure. And on the flip side too, I can understand... Yeah, and I'm sure, like, you're, you're not implying that, like, you know, there is no such thing as trauma, and that it's not okay to share trauma.

Cathy: Oh, no. Like, obviously, like—

Michael: You should've been to my childhood. We can—Let's—We'll get started.

Cathy: No, I'm simply saying, like, you know, the internet, you know, people are finding the pockets of what gets them attention, and, you know, that's, that's a trend, you know, is the sort of victimhood, the victimhood thing.

Which, again, I, you know, it all depends on the genre of music you're in. But, you—

Michael: Know—And the intention for, the intention for, you know, sharing, sharing that trauma, I think you're, you're right that, like, if, if it's coming from a place where it's either, you know, being, you leaned into or exaggerated for the, for the benefit of gaining attention, that doesn't feel...

Like, that, that feels pretty icky. If it's coming from—

Cathy: Like, I know a lot about fake trauma. That's what I'm saying.

Michael: Yeah...

Cathy: Like, trauma's extremely real, and it—and, and it's really important that we are discussing it, you know? And that it is much more of a topic where people can be more...

Have, you know, understand and have empathy toward people's situations. Which makes it all the worse when some people didn't have that, and they are using it 'cause they go, "Wow, you get a lot of attention if you say something bad happened to you." That's what I meant. It's, it's not... In no way is it saying like, "Oh," you know, "pull yourself up by your bootstraps."

No, I mean, again, what I was saying is everything is the same, it just has a different thing. So now it's like, oh, he, you know, monetized trauma. Hey, they've been writing sad songs about breakups their whole life, you know? Like—

Michael: Mm...

Cathy: That's music. So it isn't different, it just comes in different, you know, different outfits.

So—

Michael: Mm.

Cathy: Yeah.

Michael: I don't know why, like, there was, like, a catchphrase that just came out, like, monetize trauma.

Cathy: Dude, I swear to God—

Michael: Monetize trauma...

Cathy: I feel like my whole timeline is just people monetizing trauma. So it might just be—

Michael: I need to change my algorithm.

Cathy: But man, mine is just, like, victimhood everywhere.

I'm just like, "Oh my God, stop. Stop." And it is funny, actually, I just saw an interview where Courtney Love said, she's like, "I just opened a new account on Instagram just to get out of my algorithm, and there's a whole other world." It's like Shakira's doing great.

It's funny, 'cause I relate to her, just 'cause, like, I'm in this, like, loop of the type of music I listen to or the artist or whatever, and it just becomes a loop of where you don't actually see this—

Michael: Mm.

Cathy: Like, sweet 15-year-old girl who's really talented singing in a field because I'm not... You know. And then I'll go on a different account, because I manage a lot of different accounts, and I'll be like, "What's this algorithm?" Like, there's—

Michael: Yeah...

Cathy: All this different stuff coming in. So, you know, I think it's, again, it's weird how the internet can kind of create a bubble for you that you don't know about a whole lot of other stuff that's happening out there unless you really look.

Michael: Mm-hmm.

Cathy: So everyone should open their, open up their algorithms.

Michael: Yeah.

Cathy: Like some weird stuff, and then new weird stuff comes in, or stuff that you wouldn't normally gravitate towards, and it all of a sudden opens up a new thing, you know?

Michael: Mm-hmm. It's super interesting. Yeah, I mean—

Cathy: Yeah...

Michael: The whole how algorithms work and personalize things, and the recommendation for it, how that can truly warp, warp your worldview too, just based on—

Cathy: Yeah.

Michael: What you're being shown, the information diet.

Cathy: Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Like, I was doing renovations. God forbid I started liking some, you know, I like this porch. All of a sudden my timeline is like tools and home improvement and, you know—

Michael: Nothing about music.

Cathy: And then again, like, you can switch it up.

So it, it, it's—Mm. It is interesting that... Be careful of being trapped in, in an echo chamber, you know?

Michael: Mm.

Cathy: Everyone—

Michael: Yeah...

Cathy: Everyone should be careful of that.

Michael: Mm.

Cathy: Expand.

Michael: Yeah. That's a powerful guiding philosophy, is always questioning your own patterns, your own echo chambers, and intentionally seeking out ways to broaden your own horizons.

Cathy: Yeah.

Michael: Yes, for sure.

Cathy: Cool.

Listen to different music, you know, like, you know. Just don't get too caught up in your little tiny lane, you know?

Michael: Awesome. So, you know, one thing I'd be curious to hear your perspective on, you know, having worked with both sides of the industry in terms of the oak trees and the bamboo—

Cathy: Yeah.

Michael: I'm curious, what do both of those have in common? Like, what are the things that don't change between them? And also, what are the biggest differences that, that you see in terms of what you'd recommend based on those different strategies in terms of, like, what would you recommend that they focus on if they want to, you know—

Cathy: I mean—

Michael: When I advise the people who are doing major label deals, it's all about how much they need to get the bag while they can.

Michael: Mm.

Cathy: I'll be straight up. It's like, it's telling them about the terms, tell... explaining to them what their deal really means, working with their attorneys to get terms added or terms modified so they're protected to have more freedom, and also just being extremely candid and straightforward about, "Hey, you're going to get $1 million," and that sounds great, but this is what it really means.

Michael: Yeah.

Cathy: You know, is this something you wanna go for, you know? So for me, it's been about really trying to get the fewest amount of record commitment, the fewest amount of songs commitment so that they can be in and out if they need to, you know, which is a completely different conversation than what I would have with someone who is building a long-term career in music that isn't going to be, you know, in an, in a, in some big video game, you know, commercials and isn't going to be—they aren't gonna be walking fashion runways as models and they're artists.

Those are, you know, that's a different plan. But in the end, it's always the same, you know? It's, it's be aware of your rights. Try to keep your music, you know? Don't sell your publishing. Don't short sell yourself. Like, have a bigger, longer-term picture.

Michael: Mm.

Cathy: A lot of artists, you know... I think the worst thing that happens is desperation makes really bad deals.

Michael: Mm.

Cathy: And when you are like, "Wow, they're offering us 15,000 for our publishing, it seems like so much," it's like, it's not. Like—

Michael: Mm...

Cathy: Let's do a grid. Let's do a graph. Let's show you what 10 years looks like. Does it still feel like a lot? You know, is it something... So that's the kind of stuff I talk about, just, you know, the practicality of—

Michael: Mm.

Cathy: Of what they're signing, what they're signing off to. And it's different for both. A major label deal is really different than an indie deal, but at the same time, a lot of indies have just become, like, they're using the same, the same deals as majors, which is weird. It's like, so you're signing to an indie, you're not getting any money, and they want to give you only 18%.

It's like—

Michael: Mm...

Cathy: Then go to a major. You know what I mean? Get a much bigger amount of money up front if you're gonna never see a penny again, you know? So, yeah.

Michael: Makes sense. Yeah. So what I'm hearing you say is that usually what you specialize in when it comes to the consulting is around deal management.

Cathy: Yeah.

Michael: And often the artists are underrepresented in terms of their rights or their, you know, often—

Cathy: Just unaware.

Michael: Unfortunately—

Cathy: Unaware. If you're 20 years old, you don't know what cross-collateralization is. You don't know about, like, you know, you just hear, "Hey, this big company, Warner Brothers, wants to buy my publishing and they're gonna give me 100 grand."

All you hear is 100 grand, but you don't—

Michael: Right...

Cathy: Hear, well, in the end you're actually gonna walk away with this much, and it could have been this much if you didn't sell it.

Michael: Yeah.

Cathy: So it's, it's just math. It's, it's, and again, it's just, it's being a teacher. It's sort of, "Hey—

Michael: Yeah...

Cathy: Let me teach you the economics of what this deal is."

Being able to translate in a language that's easy to understand—

Michael: Mm...

Cathy: Instead of lawyers. Lawyer—I basically speak lawyer, so they'll tell me what the, you know, I'll discuss with an attorney what the—

Michael: Mm-hmm...

Cathy: The deal is and talk about like, "Blah, blah, blah. Let's get, you know, this in escalation and this, that, and the other."

And then I go back to the artist, I go, "So if you make this much, we're gonna get this much more." You know?

Michael: Mm-hmm.

Cathy: And go back and just explain it in terms that are really simple.

Michael: Mm.

Cathy: I think that one of, one of the most daunting things is to be a young artist or any artist and start to deal with looking at these legal documents and hearing lawyers still just not speak clearly about what they mean.

They're still using legal language to explain. And I think a lot of people just are so caught up in the excitement of, "I'm gonna sign. I'm gonna... This is gonna change everything," that—

Michael: Mm...

Cathy: That they do it, and they—

Michael: Yeah...

Cathy: Shouldn't have, or they could have gotten better terms or known more about what they were getting into.

Michael: Mm.

Cathy: 'Cause once you do—

Michael: Yeah...

Cathy: Stop complaining. You gotta then make a, you know, and that's another thing I teach them. Like, "Hey, you signed with XYZ. Now go be the nicest artist on the label so that everybody wants to support and help you." Like, don't go in and have an attitude and be a dick because that's a mistake a lot of artists make.

They think like, "Ooh, I'm some big shot." You are not.

Michael: Mm.

Cathy: And the person who is answering the phone can make it that your call doesn't go through if you're a dick every time. And don't think—

Michael: Mm...

Cathy: They won't. Like, just be kind, you know? That is like my... Be kind and be fair. Those are the two, like, most important things to take through life because it always comes back to you if you are those things.

Michael: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. I like it. Just be kind. I feel like that should go on a T-shirt. It should. I'm sure it's on many T-shirts. I mean, it's—

Cathy: The simplest thing on earth.

Michael: Just be—

Cathy: Kind. Be kind. Kindness begets kindness.

Michael: Mm. Dickish—

Cathy: Behavior begets dickish.

Michael: That's another good line for the shirt. Dickish begets dickish.

Dick begets—

Cathy: Dick.

Michael: Oh, man.

Cathy: Yeah.

Michael: Well, well, well, I really appreciate you hopping on and to, to, to share and shine a light on a few different paths that... You know, if someone's listening to this right now and they're, they're an artist, I'm sure that we have folks who are gonna be in both of those different camps.

You know, those camps that their goal is that, you know, they, they like making music, but really they have, like, a bigger vision as an entertainer when they're not as attached to a long-term career, versus, you know, folks that—

Cathy: They should call for a major label deal, and they should get as much money as they can because you're not gonna get any back, so get as much as you can up front.

Yeah. Utilize it to get where you actually wanna go. Utilize it to get that modeling contract. Utilize it to get in that movie. There's a lot of actor—There, there's a lot of musicians who... Like, there's a lot of actors who people don't remember. They actually... Zendaya had a record out, you know, before she was in...

It's like she utilized modeling and, and, and singing to be... And she's a fantastic actress. She belongs being an actress. Yeah. Ariana Grande, she actually wants to be an actress, if no one has, like, noticed that yet.

Michael: Mm-hmm.

Cathy: More than she wants to be a singer at this point. It didn't start out that way maybe, but it evolved into that.

So if you know going in, like, "Yeah, this is like a stepping stone. I don't see myself trying to be doing concerts when I'm 60 years old. I wanna be an actor," then again, work it. Use it. Utilize it. There's no shame in it. I say, you know, it's just a different entity. It's a, it's a different thing than the artists I manage.

They're, they don't wanna be actors. They wanna be musicians for the long term, which again, has a different aesthetic, different plan, different thing. Both are right. The young, you know, 20, gorgeous 20-year-old who's doing X, Y, and Z and has his viral hit and is on TikTok and all that stuff, but secretly just wants to, like, have his own fashion line, I'm gonna help him develop his fashion line by utilizing his position in the music industry first.

Michael: Mm.

Cathy: That's it.

Michael: Mm. Awesome. We really appreciate you hopping on and, and sharing, shining a light on a few of those different paths. And I'm curious, as we get ready to wrap up the podcast for today, if someone's listening to this right now and they are an artist that fits in, you know, one of those camps, what would you, what do you recommend that they do to get in touch with you or to reach out?

And specifically, who do you think is, like, the best candidates or the best fit? Like, how do they know if they're kinda at the right stage where they should reach out and get in contact with someone like yourself?

Cathy: Well, anyone can reach out to me because I like to help any artist. Like, if it's just a simple question and it's like, "What do I do?"

I don't... You know, I'm not necessarily going to sit and spend hours and hours and hours, but the easiest way to reach out is riverwoodarts.com is my site, and just the contact is mdmt@riverwood. That's, that's where I do management and consulting, like, where it's, it's, it's the sort of, you know, you need advice or you want whatever it is that you wanna do with your career.

I, I help artists find the right manager for themselves because, again, I specialize in oak trees, and not everyone is. So I've done a lot of where, okay, this person is being pursued, but, you know, they have something going on that the majors are... I become their, their godmother. It's like, "Hey, I have no agenda in you.

I'm only here to make sure you don't do dumb stuff you'll regret later. I'm not trying to manage you. I'm not trying to whatever. I'm trying to guide you, and I'm gonna help you find the right place that will be able to long-term manage you or book you or do whatever it is you do." So there's those kinds of, you know, artists I work with and advise, and then there's the artists that I manage, that I've managed for 20 years, you know.

And I'm—

Michael: Mm...

Cathy: Not, like, hugely into taking on more in that capacity. But definitely into guiding and helping people who are trying to figure out what's best for their music.

Michael: Awesome. Yeah. Cool. Well, like always, we'll put the links in the show notes for easy access. And Cathy, appreciate you hopping on the podcast and sharing a little bit about your, your experience over the past several decades.

Yeah. I always find it really helpful, helpful to kinda just zoom out and kinda look at what you described as the things that have changed over the years, but also the underlying, you know, fundamentals and principles that don't, don't change. Yeah. So I appreciate, you know, the work that you've been doing in, in the industry for, for this long to help artists.

Cathy: Thank you very much, and thanks for having me on.

Michael: You got it.

Cathy: Everyone.

Michael: All right. Well, we usually end these the same, same way that we started out, so I'll give you a yeah!